Alternate Guidance Spell: Less Powerful, Always On

Stalker0

Legend
The Guidance spell has been heavily debated in the past, and I don't want to rehash it here. While I have used it normally in campaigns of my past, I'm finding in this one (which is heavily skill focused) that's its just too powerful and taking up too much roll time for my taste.

So I'm considering this houserule, which would decrease the raw power of the effect, but make it more automatic and omnipresent. Basically turning this into a general buff.


Guidance

Target: Touch
Duration: 1 hour

Effect: Creature touched gains a +1 bonus to ability checks utilizing a skill.


So quick and easy. Effectively if the party is together, I would just assume they have +1 to all ability checks involving a skill. I added that last caveat since its not intended to improve things like initiative or dispel checks in this version. Its meant for skills, quick and clean, no ruling, no dm interpretation of when its appropriate. Just a simple bonus the party can enjoy.


Do you see any concerns with this version I should keep in mind?
 

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bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
The Guidance spell has been heavily debated in the past, and I don't want to rehash it here. While I have used it normally in campaigns of my past, I'm finding in this one (which is heavily skill focused) that's its just too powerful and taking up too much roll time for my taste.

So I'm considering this houserule, which would decrease the raw power of the effect, but make it more automatic and omnipresent. Basically turning this into a general buff.


Guidance

Target: Touch
Duration: 1 hour

Effect: Creature touched gains a +1 bonus to ability checks utilizing a skill.


So quick and easy. Effectively if the party is together, I would just assume they have +1 to all ability checks involving a skill. I added that last caveat since its not intended to improve things like initiative or dispel checks in this version. Its meant for skills, quick and clean, no ruling, no dm interpretation of when its appropriate. Just a simple bonus the party can enjoy.


Do you see any concerns with this version I should keep in mind?
You may want to clarify how many times an individual has this bonus active Is it for all of their skills at once, just one person caster, or just one skill at a time?
 

5ekyu

Hero
Uhhh...

Ok if you think its too powerful, i gotta say you may have taken the wrong approach.

The two biggest weaknesses of Guidance are the need for constant recast (noise from verbals, repeat in tactical situations) and its requiring concentration which means once you get into a buff ongoing situation you usually cannot employ it.

This 1 hour non-concentration deal may only be +1 (really do you think the couple pts will be big) but thats gonna get used a lot more often with this no drawbacks version.

Also, what does "utilizing a skill" mean? Do they have to be proficient in something to use it?

No divine guidance to pick a lock, disable a trap (non-skill listed dex checks) - communicate without words, appraise a gem, recall knowledge about anything not specific to a skill under int (non-skill int checks) - find the best guy for rumors or blend into crowd for topics (cha unskilled checks) etc etc.

Has there been a real problem with the non-proficient checks getting +1-4?

Really, the rules made ability checks so broad so as to not make a huge list of skills necessary and thats why try to focus over much on which bits of skill vs not skill on ability checks goes bad.

I mean is the int check to recall the drawing you saw upstairs in detail (not history obviously) gonna be guidance proof unless but the one to recall the arcane runes (arcana) guidance friendly? Really? Thats the game you want to tell stories about?
 

Stalker0

Legend
This 1 hour non-concentration deal may only be +1 (really do you think the couple pts will be big) but thats gonna get used a lot more often with this no drawbacks version.

Normally I would agree with you. Its just that in this particular game we are seeing a huge amount of investigation and knowledge type checks. I would estimate about 90% of the checks in the game currently have guidance on them. That is simply the pace of this particular game, which is why I am attempting to adjust with said house rule.
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Normally I would agree with you. Its just that in this particular game we are seeing a huge amount of investigation and knowledge type checks. I would estimate about 90% of the checks in the game currently have guidance on them. That is simply the pace of this particular game, which is why I am attempting to adjust with said house rule.

How is it that players know to cast guidance prior to the GM calling for a specific knowledge check? It seems like someone walking along... an look at that neat statue... hmm... I vaguely remember something about statues like this... ..oh well...<continues walking>. Would not normally be interrupted with "Great Deity, please give my friend guidance that that their memory would be more clear!"


A. Why would the player who is getting a investigation/knowledge check mention a need for guidance if unless the already found something and seek a better look or unless their is some perception that they the task of searching or sorting memories is important?

B. If the cleric is asked to cast guidance as re-response to NOT finding anything then they are casting guidance after the check has already failed then guidance is effecting the next check (if any) done before the spell ends in 10 mins.

C. If a PC is in a dungeon and finds a locked door. They then ask, "Hay cleric can you bless me with guidance so that we can open the door quietly?" … the cleric says sure then yells out "Great Deity, please give my friend guidance that fingers move swift and careful!"...."oh well, I am pretty sure the guards know we are here now so its not going to suddenly become stealth again because I succeed in opening the door with a lock pick instead of an axe."

D. In contrast, a PC spots a trap..."Cleric, there is a trap here and I don't see anyone around... if you have any favor with your deity to prevent me from dying that would be applicated". Cleric, "Great Deity, please give my friend guidance that they are able to make our way safe!" … Player disarms trap...PC: Okay, we are clear lets move forward.

I have two simple rules that prevent 90% of investigation and knowledge type checks from having guidance.

1. The Cleric may call out a the verbal part of the spell if the player can announce the non-meta game reason the Cleci character is casting it.

Good Example: "As the Rogue takes out his thieves' tool's, the Cleric calls for his deity to guide the rogues hands!"
Bad Example: GM, "Wizard make a history check." Cleric "I cast guidance" GM "why?" Cleric "because you called for a check"

2. Guidance is concentration so only one character is effected at time. So I go around the table asking what each player is doing if they are doing 2 things at once only one can receive the clerics guidance.
 
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5ekyu

Hero
How is it that players know to cast guidance prior to the GM calling for a specific knowledge check? It seems like someone walking along... an look at that neat statue... hmm... I vaguely remember something about statues like this... ..oh well...<continues walking>. Would not normally be interrupted with "Great Deity, please give my friend guidance that that their memory would be more clear!"


A. Why would the player who is getting a investigation/knowledge check mention a need for guidance if unless the already found something and seek a better look or unless their is some perception that they the task of searching or sorting memories is important?

B. If the cleric is asked to cast guidance as re-response to NOT finding anything then they are casting guidance after the check has already failed then guidance is effecting the next check (if any) done before the spell ends in 10 mins.

C. If a PC is in a dungeon and finds a locked door. They then ask, "Hay cleric can you bless me with guidance so that we can open the door quietly?" … the cleric says sure then yells out "Great Deity, please give my friend guidance that fingers move swift and careful!"...."oh well, I am pretty sure the guards know we are here now so its not going to suddenly become stealth again because I succeed in opening the door with a lock pick instead of an axe."

D. In contrast, a PC spots a trap..."Cleric, there is a trap here and I don't see anyone around... if you have any favor with your deity to prevent me from dying that would be applicated". Cleric, "Great Deity, please give my friend guidance that they are able to make our way safe!" … Player disarms trap...PC: Okay, we are clear lets move forward.

I have two simple rules that prevent 90% of investigation and knowledge type checks from having guidance.

1. The Cleric may call out a the verbal part of the spell if the player can announce the non-meta game reason the Cleci character is casting it.

Good Example: "As the Rogue takes out his thieves' tool's, the Cleric calls for his deity to guide the rogues hands!"
Bad Example: GM, "Wizard make a history check." Cleric "I cast guidance" GM "why?" Cleric "because you called for a check"

2. Guidance is concentration so only one character is effected at time. So I go around the table asking what each player is doing if they are doing 2 things at once only one can receive the clerics guidance.
" GM, "Wizard make a history check." Cleric "I cast guidance" GM "why?" Cleric "because you called for a check""

Would not this be acceptable Wizard: Before I study [insert whatever the history check is about] I ask my friend Cleric fo seei divine guidance that I may see more clearly that which is long past"?

Assumes this is not a time crisis sensitive history check.

I agree on the rest.

But it does not seem above board for the gm to somehow skirt guidance on knowledge checks by calling for the roll themselves. If you allow retry, they just cast then reroll. If you dont allow reroll surprise knowledge checks to skirt support seems way off kilter.
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
" GM, "Wizard make a history check." Cleric "I cast guidance" GM "why?" Cleric "because you called for a check""

So if this is not something player called for but simply your calling for a check because you know the Wizard has high intelligence and proficiency with history it might be that while the player doesn't think to actively consider a painting you recognize that perhaps the character might know something interesting or useful so you as GM call for the roll without them asking. Since it might not be anything more than a glance or at a painting at a wall, there is no reason for the cleric to assume the Wizard needs guidance on this check.

Would not this be acceptable Wizard: Before I study [insert whatever the history check is about] I ask my friend Cleric fo seei divine guidance that I may see more clearly that which is long past"?

Assumes this is not a time crisis sensitive history check.

Sure, I would totally see that. The wizard had forsight (rule #1) and asked for it so the Cleric inherits that. If however rule #2, I would ask what other players are doing in the mean time, are they just sleeping in the library board out of their minds while the wizard studies? If a second character wanted to find a shop at the same time, since the spell only lasts for 10 mins and its concentration other characters would not benefit from it in an investigation check to find a shop they don't know of (AKA hidden from view, so investigation). Also, the Cleric is bound to the Library and Wizard as well since the 10 mins will not carry through the hole task. So negotiations with salesmen or watching the door for someone who might catch them in the forbidden section of the library will not get guidance at the same time.

I agree on the rest.

But it does not seem above board for the gm to somehow skirt guidance on knowledge checks by calling for the roll themselves. If you allow retry, they just cast then reroll. If you dont allow reroll surprise knowledge checks to skirt support seems way off kilter.

If a players decides their PC does something they call for the check. Example: Player, "I would like to investigate the room"

If events or things unseen to your players controlled by the GM could effect them, the GM calls for a check even if not asked because players couldn't possibly know to call for the check.
Example: The players are walking through the mansion, one painting in GM notes has special meaning to one player. If that player walks by it, the GM might call for a perception check to be aware of the painting. The player wouldn't know of the painting on a fail nor the Cleric to grant them guidance, but on a success something might trigger base on skills they are proficient with or there back story. As a GM you feel the world to players with respect to characters. So unless you want to teach your players to investigate every ... single .... room... sometimes you let them walk and give them a roll for unexpected information.

Look at it this way, If you don't let players call for rolls your stealing player free agency but if you don't give rolls to players who didn't call for them when their character in game would based on its abilities is also stealing free agency through omission since your denying the characters abilities and therefore the players character choices and roles. If a players says, "I scout ahead"... that player is the scout, that player did not call for a perception check but is constantly searching perhaps for hours, and as a GM when that player could perceive something, I as GM, will give them a role. They will not get guidance however, because the Cleric would have to cast guidance on that scout every ten minutes all day until they found something. Their is no acceptable forsight for the cleric to do that, but their is a expectation of the player running the "scout" to keep watch for surprises for the duration. Also, if I were to have the scout player call perception checks for being the scout, they would need to roll every few feet in every dungeon or forest at all times... which would be EXTREMELY painful for everyone. The non-scout players still have passive perception if the scout misses something but they will never get higher than that and "eyes of the eagle" for example would apply to the scouts GM called perception roll, so I am not ignoring their items, character choices, or party roles they have picked but instead respecting them by call the role for them when it is relevant and they would not know to do so since the world only exists in my head as GM and creator of the world they are in.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
So if this is not something player called for but simply your calling for a check because you know the Wizard has high intelligence and proficiency with history it might be that while the player doesn't think to actively consider a painting you recognize that perhaps the character might know something interesting or useful so you as GM call for the roll without them asking. Since it might not be anything more than a glance or at a painting at a wall, there is no reason for the cleric to assume the Wizard needs guidance on this check.



Sure, I would totally see that. The wizard had forsight (rule #1) and asked for it so the Cleric inherits that. If however rule #2, I would ask what other players are doing in the mean time, are they just sleeping in the library board out of their minds while the wizard studies? If a second character wanted to find a shop at the same time, since the spell only lasts for 10 mins and its concentration other characters would not benefit from it in an investigation check to find a shop they don't know of (AKA hidden from view, so investigation). Also, the Cleric is bound to the Library and Wizard as well since the 10 mins will not carry through the hole task. So negotiations with salesmen or watching the door for someone who might catch them in the forbidden section of the library will not get guidance at the same time.



If a players decides their PC does something they call for the check. Example: Player, "I would like to investigate the room"

If events or things unseen to your players controlled by the GM could effect them, the GM calls for a check even if not asked because players couldn't possibly know to call for the check.
Example: The players are walking through the mansion, one painting in GM notes has special meaning to one player. If that player walks by it, the GM might call for a perception check to be aware of the painting. The player wouldn't know of the painting on a fail nor the Cleric to grant them guidance, but on a success something might trigger base on skills they are proficient with or there back story. As a GM you feel the world to players with respect to characters. So unless you want to teach your players to investigate every ... single .... room... sometimes you let them walk and give them a roll for unexpected information.

Look at it this way, If you don't let players call for rolls your stealing player free agency but if you don't give rolls to players who didn't call for them when their character in game would based on its abilities is also stealing free agency through omission since your denying the characters abilities and therefore the players character choices and roles. If a players says, "I scout ahead"... that player is the scout, that player did not call for a perception check but is constantly searching perhaps for hours, and as a GM when that player could perceive something, I as GM, will give them a role. They will not get guidance however, because the Cleric would have to cast guidance on that scout every ten minutes all day until they found something. Their is no acceptable forsight for the cleric to do that, but their is a expectation of the player running the "scout" to keep watch for surprises for the duration. Also, if I were to have the scout player call perception checks for being the scout, they would need to roll every few feet in every dungeon or forest at all times... which would be EXTREMELY painful for everyone. The non-scout players still have passive perception if the scout misses something but they will never get higher than that and "eyes of the eagle" for example would apply to the scouts GM called perception roll, so I am not ignoring their items, character choices, or party roles they have picked but instead respecting them by call the role for them when it is relevant and they would not know to do so since the world only exists in my head as GM and creator of the world they are in.
I don't let players call for rolls at all. My method has layers declare actions, the DM determines yes, no, or uncertain outcome. If uncertain, the DM calls for a roll. In all cases, the DM narrates results. Rinse, repeat.

On topic, this helps greatly with guidance spamming -- since players are declaring actions openly, that's when a guidance caster would declare casting guidance -- ie, before the DM determines whether ir not the declared action is uncertain. This means the guidance is being used on declared actions, not when rolls are called for.

It also means that DMs need to seed action triggers into scene framing. So, a roll to notice a painting would only be asked for if a declared action necessitated it. That's a weird crapshoot, so I'd frame an interesting painting into the scene straight up and let players declare actions to investigate if they wanted to. This is a stylistic point, so YMMV.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
First, phrasing suggestion (emphasis is my suggestion):

Guidance

Target: Touch
Duration: 1 hour

Effect: One creature you touch gains a +1 bonus to all ability checks for which their proficiency bonus applies.


Second, I suspect that the players will get tired of deciding who gets guidance and just say something like, "We decided as a group that Darvinius is just going to cast guidance on Aien Styn once per hour, unless we say otherwise." So the cantrip will turn into a permanent buff for one PC, and probably not the PC who invested spell resources to get it. I may be wrong about that -- you know your players and I don't -- it's just something to watch out for.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Normally I would agree with you. Its just that in this particular game we are seeing a huge amount of investigation and knowledge type checks. I would estimate about 90% of the checks in the game currently have guidance on them. That is simply the pace of this particular game, which is why I am attempting to adjust with said house rule.

Is everyone else standing around doing nothing during this time?

At our table the DM sets the scene then everyone says what they are doing. 1 character can have Guidance per caster who has it and the caster has to be with them as it has a range of touch.
 

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