Advantage on Damage Rolls

WaterRabbit

Explorer
If you want to say "the base weapon load given out by classes at 1st level is a ridiculous load to carry and can't be used" that's fine for your game, but don't try to pretend that is a actual rule of the game. Trying to disqualify someone's general discussion because of either your own house rule doesn't fly.



Let's see how many of the 1st level weapon-focused classes you would disqualify.

Barbarians - 6-7 weapons
Fighter - 3-5 weapons/shields.
Paladin - 3-7 weapons
Ranger - 3 weapons - woo, they fit!
Rogues - 4 weapons

Demonstrably, the designers don't agree with you.



Yet the designers went for a lot more weapons. And didn't include any of the rules about "getting in the way". I can't talk abotu why, because it's a heroic game, or not wanting to clutter up the rules and add complexity, all I can do is definitely point out that starting characters are expected to be able to carry and use up to seven weapon.



Again, designer are explicitly fine with seven weapons, and implicitly fine with any number that fits encumbrance. You curtaining it at less is a house rule. Even if you don't recognize it as a house rule.

I'm all for house rules to adjust the game for a table, but using it as a foundation to try to prove your point in a general discussion that includes other tables isn't useful.

You are making a silly assumption. You are assuming that the starting weapons all can be equipped at the same time. That is neither supported nor implied by the rules. Owning does not mean they can all be equipped. It is also silly as many games just have the characters buy their starting equipment.

This has been a line of question has been around for every version of D&D I have played (all except 4th). I don't believe it is addressed in the current rule set one way or another. Your "line of evidence" is based upon your own biases and assumptions, nothing more and is flimsy at best for trying to make your case.

You can call it a house rule, but again you are mistaken about a house rule versus an adjudication.

If a player can show me how they can carry a greataxe, two handaxes, 4 javelins, a pike and a greatclub (your example) and not have them interfere with fighting, dungeon delving, running, etc. then fine. Otherwise, a bit of common sense goes a long way in answering this question.

The 3 weapon limit "house rule" is the most common adjudication I have seen.

A heroic game does not require that characters can pull weapons out of their arse, so that is just a silly comment as well. Conan only uses and carries one weapon and that certainty qualifies as heroic.

If a player wants to carry a truckload of weapons, they can try to get a bag of holding which should not be that difficult in most games as it is an uncommon minor item.
 

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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I'm struck by the dichotomy of how you can make claims such as three weapon limit being the most common house rule (excuse me "adjudication") without providing any support and expect me to accept it, but when I give numerous examples from the core book you hand wave that away calling it weak.

I believe both our minds are made up, I don't see much use in continuing this conversation.

I leave this discussion knowing I provided examples from the rulebook as well the support of the actual encumbrance rules, and have been provided with nothing from the rules to cast those into doubt.

Good day.
 

Quartz

Hero
What sort of effect would this have mathematically? I've been thinking about ways to make physical damage types more relevant (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing) but I find Vulnerable to be too big a swing. Perhaps against heavy armor, bludgeoning damage gets advantage,

It's actually historically inaccurate to say that bludgeoning attacks were particularly effective against heavy armour as the armour spread the force of the blow. Unless you struck the head, of course, but that's the same for all armour. Similarly, piercing attacks tended to slide off unless you got a good hit. The downside of the armour types is modelled by the maximum Dex bonuses allowed.
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
How is having the right weapon a trivial thing? First, you must actually possess the weapon (this requires foresight or luck). Next, it has to be accessible - on your person somewhere (which requires using the right storage methods). If you've passed those hurdles, you still need to commit up to two actions - stowing a weapon and drawing another - to getting your major-buff-weapon into play. What's your opponent doing during those two actions?

Go ahead and just drop a weapon to save an action - and see who kicks it into a gutter, or which goblin runs up and steals it.

Also, if a player wants to just carry around a different weapon for each vulnerability, the damage advantage he gains should be offset by the attack disadvantage that comes from having a bunch of weapons hanging off his body.


1) I'll forgive the pun.
2) The DM can grant advantage (legally) anytime she wants. So there's no reason why using a bow against a monstrous pincushion or a warhammer against a glass golem couldn't get normal advantage. You don't need a special rule for it, just a situational advantage. It's not a stretch to provide the option of using advantage on the damage die instead if the situation involves causing damage. And it's not a stretch, from there, to say that rerolling a d12 or smaller is trivial, so why not just maximize that die's damage?

Piercing Slashing Bludgeoning weapon.jpg
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
It's actually historically inaccurate to say that bludgeoning attacks were particularly effective against heavy armour as the armour spread the force of the blow. Unless you struck the head, of course, but that's the same for all armour. Similarly, piercing attacks tended to slide off unless you got a good hit. The downside of the armour types is modelled by the maximum Dex bonuses allowed.

That is incorrect. Warhammers were historically a primary weapon over swords against armored opponents. While you are correct that a heavy armor spreads the force of blows, that also applies to cutting and piercing damage that uses less force because the balance of the weapon is near the handle. Solid plate armor turns a direct slashing or piercing attack that is not precise enough to target lower armored area into bludgeoning damage by spreading the impact of the edge. Since the weapons use less force when the force is spread is converted it ammounts to less bludgeoning damage and so less damage to the target. Warhammers were meant to maximize bludgeoning force by balancing the weapon far to the head ignoring the transfer into bludgeoning damage and killing the opponent by maximizing force breaking bones and causing internal bleeding. Polearms were very popular often having and axe for unarmored and bludgeoning side for armored opponents because hitting an armored opponent with the axe side might cause it to glance because it needs a more precise hit with proper edge alignment to be effective where dropping a heavy flat surface from twelve feet up on an Knights head is likely to break his neck because the helmet is suspended entirely on the neck. Most armor does not have a neck brace you simply wear the helmet so all the force from a drop from above is transferred down into your neck. A rounded helmet can cause arrows blade edges to glance and transfer a large portion of the force to the shoulder armor reducing the force of both impacts or deflect it to the ground meaning the knight is not taking the majority of it impact in any way.

I am in no way saying piecing weapons were not used but as armor got better shield got smaller because Knights could take a direct arrow hit and it simply didn't have the mass to generate enough force so a small shield to cover eye slots were all that was needed. If your attacking with the spear rapier you aim for lower armored arm pits and other joints, cutting edges need to aimed at the neck to try an cut under the helmet and above the chest piece. That is also why many shoulder guard are designed to shield the neck and fanned armor to keep piecing and edged weapons away from the joints.

neck guards.jpg

The truth is your better of with a Warhammer, mace, or bludgeoning polearm against a heavily armored opponent.

Slashing damage is better for cutting aches which means focusing force to an edge for penetration and maximizing areas of impact with that penetration. It requires less accuracy then a penetrating weapon or bludgeoning weapons the are most effective in transferring force a the initial point of impact and less strength and force for fight endurance than a heavy bludgeoning weapon making it ideal for sustained combat by skilled and unskilled swordsmen vs unarmored opponents where any blade alignment is likely to sink into the target and guide the blade instead of deflect it.

Piecing weapons are precision weapons using focused force to allow the user to dramatically reduce the total strength and power needed but requiring a much more skill. This means its efficient and better when you have your opponent by surprise for a still target making hitting a precise vital organ like a knife stabbed into the kidney or heart from behind, a throat stabbed in the side from behind, or an arrow/bolt into a target standing still giving a speech. When make these attack you either need a high degree of skill or a for your opponent to provide good opening. A flesh wound with a piercing attack would typically be less damaging than a bludgeoning or slashing damage. While a successful targeted hit on a vital organ is more likely to impact the organ and kill the opponent in a single hit.

If I were going to make weapon rules I would do something like this:

Bludgeoning is standard damage (punches, kicks, hammers) and does not change.

Slashing would half a +2 to hit, -2 to damage (minimum 1) versus medium and -3 to damage (minimum 1) versus heavy armor.

Piercing would be -5 to hit, -2 to damage (minimum 1) but if you hit with natural 16-19 you attack does critical damage and a natural 20 would do a maximized critical weapon damage without the -2 to damage. For example a natural 20 on a 1d4 dagger would do 8 damage every time +str/dex + additional standard critical damage dice. If you have a 1d6 backstab your still it would be a 2d6 for your critical but your not maximizing that since its from a skill, spell, ability, other than the weapon.

However, this would require other balance adjustments because archers for example would critical about a 1/4 of the time and the archer classes were not design for this. However they are going to miss 20% more too so that might already level. Hard to say without play testing.
 
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WaterRabbit

Explorer
I'm struck by the dichotomy of how you can make claims such as three weapon limit being the most common house rule (excuse me "adjudication") without providing any support and expect me to accept it, but when I give numerous examples from the core book you hand wave that away calling it weak.

So much failed reading comprehension here: I specifically stated that is was the most common adjudication I had seen (placed in italics to emphasize this aspect). I did not state that it is the most common adjudication in total - I literally have no way of knowing that.

Yes you provided examples, but those examples of starting packages do not support your position. The current price of tea in China would be just as supportive.

The actual encumbrance rule is only about weight. However, 5e does emphasize the plain language of words. Hence:

en·cum·brance (noun) -- a burden or impediment.

Just because the weight of a character's equipment is below an arbitrary limit (i.e., if I drop 1 arrow I am no longer "encumbered") doesn't mean the equipment isn't encumbering. Marching for 4 hours carrying the equipment load you suggested and then trying to fight is going to be tiring and encumbering.

This is just common sense and again I have seen it commonly adjudicated as such. Without the DM making adjudication like this, you get into that strange space of min/maxing equipment loads which is equally silly.
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
So much failed reading comprehension here: I specifically stated that is was the most common adjudication I had seen (placed in italics to emphasize this aspect). I did not state that it is the most common adjudication in total - I literally have no way of knowing that.

Yes you provided examples, but those examples of starting packages do not support your position. The current price of tea in China would be just as supportive.

The actual encumbrance rule is only about weight. However, 5e does emphasize the plain language of words. Hence:

en·cum·brance (noun) -- a burden or impediment.

Just because the weight of a character's equipment is below an arbitrary limit (i.e., if I drop 1 arrow I am no longer "encumbered") doesn't mean the equipment isn't encumbering. Marching for 4 hours carrying the equipment load you suggested and then trying to fight is going to be tiring and encumbering.

This is just common sense and again I have seen it commonly adjudicated as such. Without the DM making adjudication like this, you get into that strange space of min/maxing equipment loads which is equally silly.

It is within reason and RAW to re-skin weapons and spells for damage type to better suit the player. If a player doesn't want to deal with carrying 3 weapons they ask the GM for something like this...

Piercing Slashing Bludgeoning weapon.jpg

Which allows them to do the same damage on a skinned weapon and choose the damage type per the situation. If the GM wants the player to suffer under the need to carry separate items the the GM has to justify why in a world where its far more important than the real one to have the right type of damage a smith could not be commissioned to make a war pick with an axe head on one side and simply bludgeon targets with the side of the weapon avoiding the axe or pick... its certainly in the skill level of any smith even in the imaginary D&D world. Its a hard sell that someone using and axe can't turn it around and hit an enemy they know takes more damage with bludgeoning, with the flat back side of the same axe or the pommel. A fact recognized by PHB p198 Knocking a Creature Out were you can choose to knock a target out instead of cutting off its head with your great sword.

At that point, the only way a player is bring 3 specific options is if each one is a magically superior variant used to bribe the player into it... with means they are not better because if their different type of damage but because they are magical providing a bonus good enough that the player would choose them over a common since weapon. At that point the player is not complaining because the end result is that the GM primarily just made them more powerful in an attempt to making damage type meaningful. Which is still true with non-magic slashing/bludgeoning/piecing and them planning to fight enemies they know are resistant to such damage but not the magical variant. Player simply seek out what they need and since those weapons usually also come with some magical bonus it only means that they nullify the weakness and have more powerful weapons.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
The truth is your better of with a Warhammer, mace, or bludgeoning polearm against a heavily armored opponent.
Um, true?

It is within reason and RAW to re-skin weapons and spells for damage type to better suit the player. If a player doesn't want to deal with carrying 3 weapons they ask the GM for something like this...
Which makes the disarm or weapon breakage event so much more delicious!

its certainly in the skill level of any smith even in the imaginary D&D world. Its a hard sell that someone using and axe can't turn it around and hit an enemy they know takes more damage with bludgeoning, with the flat back side of the same axe or the pommel. A fact recognized by PHB p198 Knocking a Creature Out were you can choose to knock a target out instead of cutting off its head with your great sword.
Skill level of the smith, yes. I pity the priest, though, whose patron asks him to bless the pointy end as a good weapon and the blunt end as an evil weapon. I pity the PC who finds out at an inopportune time that a good/evil weapon is effectively cursed!

As an aside, you know D&D is a combat-focused game when they provide combat rules for solving problems without killing (Knocking a Creature Out).
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Um, true?

Yes. Which is why in HEMA those weapons aren't generally allowed because you can "cut" or "stab" be with a blunt sword all day and I am fine but hitting with with mace even in armor is dangerous. If stabbing and cutting weapons maintained the same force they would be an equal threat. They don't so they aren't. My great sword however is not allowed ether because while it is blunt has max and bludgeoning power of a two handed mace and in the first day I used it I accidentally hurt two people without using full effort and when I loaned it to a friend who wanted to try it out I ended up with bruises on my right arm through my armor and a dent in my helmet. Having fought almost every weekend for a year vs blunted metal long swords, rapiers, and shortswords... I can promise you that you that even with thick armor that a long sword can't just cut through a heavy maul or other force impact weapon will indeed be more effective. Without armor or in thinner armor I would take the handle balanced weapon for speed and technique. Which is why when guns took the human limitation away from the force of the projectile and did it with gun powder they over came heavy armor and it became more effective to move quickly be harder to hit. Prior to that you could take stab to a breast plate from a rapier or arrow without fear of death so the had to aim for the joints making it possible but much hard to achieve.

Which makes the disarm or weapon breakage event so much more delicious!

Your are correct but that's no different than if you only only had one weapon or one type but you would then be able to change damage. It has happened to me and to my fellow player who was an Eldritch Knight which made for a humerus bonus action re-arming moment.

Skill level of the smith, yes. I pity the priest, though, whose patron asks him to bless the pointy end as a good weapon and the blunt end as an evil weapon. I pity the PC who finds out at an inopportune time that a good/evil weapon is effectively cursed!

This is less of an issue of damage type than of knowing your enemy. You don't need to be able to fight good and evil at the same time 99.9% of the time. If your fighting Demons, you get a blessing to fight demons and if your fighting good you... well if your fighting good your likely playing an evil campaign maybe at that point you do need a weapon to fight good and evil but to be honest I don't really see any spells or blessing in 5e that work against one but not the other and that was a deliberate change. From the real word prospective though only an evil priest would be able to bless to fight good and evil in which case the curse it likely to begin with. It's also likely your next mission to capture and torture their loved ones and to fix the curse into the weapon you asked for only to kill them all once you verified it has been done... So yes it could be a problem but its likely just the type of story you signed on for if your GM is putting you in that situation.

I am really curious what your reply is for this train of thought, lol.

As an aside, you know D&D is a combat-focused game when they provide combat rules for solving problems without killing (Knocking a Creature Out).

lol, True. But I thinks its also a game of options. I find when a game leans too much to story it tends to railroading GM story time where the rules don't matter and much or all player involvement is reduced to listening being an audience, when it leans too much to combat it becomes a pointless grind or it becomes about custom enemies that break the rules just killing players, and when mechanics are overly emphasized a session can break down into rules lawyer and rule debates distracting form actual play. Story gives combat meaning, design keeps story on the rails with some level of agreed limits, then combat gives the story and design a meeting point that creates actual threats for the sake of tension, consequence, and moments of heroism earned through actual use of design to develop or achieve story goals. If a GM starts leaving the mechanical rules, avoiding conflict that could be skill based or combat, and/or running through endless fights without some story purpose or reason to be fighting and some story development as a result of conflict resolution... I will get board, annoyed, or both then start to wonder why I am wasting my time.

As with all good things... Balance and moderation usually works best even though most people have a priority.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
... So yes it could be a problem but its likely just the type of story you signed on for if your GM is putting you in that situation.

I am really curious what your reply is for this train of thought, lol.

No train. Just a bad example, I guess. An enchanter trying to imbue different elemental power types into one weapon would have similar problems. My foggy memory says that weapons of the gods were most likely to have multiple enchantments on them, which is fine by me.
 

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