D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them." Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better...

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.
 

This is straight up bizzarro world, for me.

The Seeker lacked some mathematically efficacy in an optimized game, but was otherwise one of the coolest post-PHB classes. It’s a strong concept, executed mostly well, with some light number problems, and some powers that weren’t ambitious enough on the effect-based control due to fear of overpowering with weapon attacks with heavy riders.


Anyway, I don’t think the weirdness you mention actually necessarily follows. People are better at defending their face than their legs, for one thing.

Much More importantly, it’s thematically prevalent to have a hyper-skilled combatant cripple rather than kill. Zoro, Batman, various fictional archers.

I think its dubious to try to depict 'moral rogues' in that kind of mechanical way. It should be a thematic thing, poking people with a stick is hard to depict as much besides damage...

I think it was the very thematic difficulty with the Seeker which LEAD to the inability of the authors to produce something mechanically sound. BECAUSE they struggled with thematic issues the quality of the things mechanics suffered. I don't disagree that it was POSSIBLE to make Seekers work, mechanically, they just never even got that far. They spent all their time wrestling with the narrative issues.

It isn't an accident that the thematically difficult class turned out to be poorly implemented!
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think its dubious to try to depict 'moral rogues' in that kind of mechanical way. It should be a thematic thing, poking people with a stick is hard to depict as much besides damage...

I think it was the very thematic difficulty with the Seeker which LEAD to the inability of the authors to produce something mechanically sound. BECAUSE they struggled with thematic issues the quality of the things mechanics suffered. I don't disagree that it was POSSIBLE to make Seekers work, mechanically, they just never even got that far. They spent all their time wrestling with the narrative issues.

It isn't an accident that the thematically difficult class turned out to be poorly implemented!

Why is it dubious? It’s a skill set that is different from simply killing people. It’s also not hard at all to depict weapon as doing things other than damage. 4e already does that is spades.

As for the seeker, I disagree with your premises. I don’t think he class if thematically difficult st all, and I’m not convinced that it is poorly implemented.
 

Marshall

First Post
Noted
Page 42 still says exactly what it says. Page 42 is clear.

Hussar has said that it is poorly written. Others have told me to imply the answer. Now you are referencing a completely separate book that came out a year later.

I'll totally accept the idea that they screwed up at first and then started trying to fix it. So, maybe for someone who played it for a long time and over the past nine years since DMG2 came out has grown to take these implications and guidelines as errata. But there is no remotely reasonable way to read page 42 and interpret it as anything other than saying what I'm saying.

Again, go back and read my posts. I've stated a few times now that the method being suggested is a dramatic improvement over the RAW presented on P42 of the DMG.

I don't understand why 4E fans can't bring themselves to just say "yeah, that sucked, but they fixed it" because that seems to be the case.
It is no secret that WotC tried all kinds of things to fix 4E.

There are plenty of newbie DMs who just followed the rules, didn't like the result and never bought DMG2. There are plenty of experienced players who read this kind of thing and moved on to other games well before the DMG2 came out. Remember what this thread is about "the 4E that could have been".
Refusing to concede that there were serious flaws was a problem that the 4E fanbase held to throughout and they added to the alienation. There seems to be nothing left to gain by seeming to be dead set on ignoring the reality at this point.

4E was an AWESOME game for a very specific type of player. I've always said that and I still believe it. But that doesn't mean it was without flaws.
This was a flaw. And the fact that nobody is will to address page 42 by actually talking about the words which actually appear on page 42 is telling.

Why hasn't anyone pointed out that the whole point of page 42 wasn't to set DCs but to ensure that a PCs actions were worthwhile according to his level? The other half of the DC/LEVEL chart was a damage calculation. The DC was based on the character level so that the effect was appropriate for the character level.
You don't swing on the chandelier to move over to Orcus for a basic attack at level 25. You swing on the chandelier to hit Orcus with a 3d8+dazed and prone attack.
 

Why hasn't anyone pointed out that the whole point of page 42 wasn't to set DCs but to ensure that a PCs actions were worthwhile according to his level? The other half of the DC/LEVEL chart was a damage calculation. The DC was based on the character level so that the effect was appropriate for the character level.
You don't swing on the chandelier to move over to Orcus for a basic attack at level 25. You swing on the chandelier to hit Orcus with a 3d8+dazed and prone attack.

Well, I'm not sure exactly what it is that [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] is trying to say that Page 42 doesn't say exactly...

Page 42 basically says:

Use these rules to resolve 'unusual actions', by which I would assume the meaning is "not covered by another rule and not a normal power use." If it was covered by another rule, or if it was simply using a power in the normal way it was intended, then no special rule would be needed, so this covers "other things." Note that the rest of Page 42 is cloaked in the language of Actions, which at least implies it is primarily, at least often, something that happens in combat (although the original SC rules do also have initiative and turns, but don't use the term 'Action' in a technical sense).

Next it says "Cast the Action as a Check:" This is pretty much absolute, so anything a PC tries to do that isn't covered by another rule is a check. This can be an attack or an 'other check', and each of these types uses the appropriate rules. Other can either be a skill check, or an ability check if no obvious skill applies.

Note that DCs are set either by the defense of the opponent (attack) or by the DC and Damage by Level table. The GM is NOT given an option to scale the DC, but it can be cast as easy, medium, or hard.

The rest of the page discusses damage, basically saying the Damage by Level chart can be used to assess damage based on the 'severity of an effect', and can be used to assess damage when a PC improvises an attack, with the repeatability and risk/reward dictating which type of damage expression to use (DMG1 has 6 choices here, later charts reduced that range IIRC).

I'm not sure what anyone has claimed this page includes that isn't here. I would only say that it should be taken in the greater context of 4e. PCs are to be challenged by things of a 'level appropriate' nature, so situations where level N PCs deal with much lower/higher level situations/effects shouldn't EVER come up. If they did, then page 42 is effectively indicating that the DCs are always centered on the PC's level (though damage is not, see the top of the 2nd column about that). I would consider that level 10 PCs going back to the village to do something and running into situations that were level 1 when they started are either operating under much more severe constraints if they attempt similar tasks (IE available time is much less, conditions are worse, etc.) or else these simple tasks are not the focus of the action and won't require checks (IE you can simply break the wooden door down now, it isn't going to require a level 10 easy check to do it).

I'd note that the sections of the DMG covering things like doors and objects also account for differences in level, with a 'wooden door' for example always being a low DC, which further indicates how things should work. Terrain has a similar mechanism, though it is cast more in terms of "if the PCs are higher level then the terrain will have some higher level effects/characteristics which raise the DC, make something up."

Admittedly, the writers of the DMG (and the RC as well) never completely 100% divorced themselves from either the presentation of DCs as 'sliding' or as 'fixed', and never well-articulated in an explicit way the idea that the action should scale in both narrative and mechanical terms, but this is certainly implicit in the entire nature of the way D&D (and 4e in particular) work!
 

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