Satyrn
First Post
My NPCs don't get class levels because that's a huge waste of my DM prep time. And the PCs definitely stand apart from (and above) most of human society. The king in my setting only has 2 hit dice, for example.
Aging and Immortality and does it Matter?
My NPCs don't get class levels because that's a huge waste of my DM prep time. And the PCs definitely stand apart from (and above) most of human society. The king in my setting only has 2 hit dice, for example.
WaterRabbit
Explorer
So wouldn't that depend upon the king? A warrior king who got his power through conquest would be different than a king that inherited the crown and just partied. (Charlemagne vs Louie XVI).
But how about the king's champion? Or the court wizard? What about other adventuring parties that come in conflict with the PCs?
There are all sorts of NPCs that could and should have class levels. The most difficult challenge of any version of D&D has always been an equivalent leveled party.
A villainous mage isn't that impressive if they don't get class levels. The stock archmage from the MM is kind of boring in fact.
Currently my party is facing a 4th level goblin wizard who focuses on illusion and enchantments. The goblin survived the massacre in the very first goblin cave in the starter adventure and promoted through play from a mook to a mid-level boss. He has escaped two encounters with the party before as well as tormented them by his continued survival. He is likely to survive (though not guaranteed) the current encounter.
This type of play would not be possible with a standard cardboard cutout from the MM. The class levels give him a level of verisimilitude that a non-stated NPC would not have.
the Jester
Legend
It matters more the more persistent your setting is, and also the more you use downtime.
Since 5e dropped, almost seven years have passed in game in my campaign. Much of that was via downtime, which gives time for adventure sites to 'reset' so you can reuse them; for the political situation to evolve; for pcs to start families, knowing that there's actually a chance that some of them might get to play their offspring; for unstopped bad guys to move their long-term schemes along; and so on.
I recognize that my game is atypical in having much of a focus on the long term, but I think that's a shame- I think, if more groups played with generations-long campaigns in mind, they would probably enjoy it. Which isn't to say it's for everyone, but it really helps address the old "1st to 20th level in a month" issue that can come up in non-stop adventure styles of play. (Which, again, isn't an issue for everyone, but people do complain about it sometimes. Downtime is at least a partial solution.)
Since 5e dropped, almost seven years have passed in game in my campaign. Much of that was via downtime, which gives time for adventure sites to 'reset' so you can reuse them; for the political situation to evolve; for pcs to start families, knowing that there's actually a chance that some of them might get to play their offspring; for unstopped bad guys to move their long-term schemes along; and so on.
I recognize that my game is atypical in having much of a focus on the long term, but I think that's a shame- I think, if more groups played with generations-long campaigns in mind, they would probably enjoy it. Which isn't to say it's for everyone, but it really helps address the old "1st to 20th level in a month" issue that can come up in non-stop adventure styles of play. (Which, again, isn't an issue for everyone, but people do complain about it sometimes. Downtime is at least a partial solution.)
E
Elderbrain
Guest
Heh. I see what you did there. Were there, by any chance, any yellow, ball-shaped creatures eating floating dots in this maze...?
Satyrn
First Post
It makes no difference in whether I would give class levels to a king. It's quicker prep for me to I write a statblock without flipping through the Players handbook to look up class rules.
If you're asking about hit dice, it does depend, but not much. Charlemagne is among the very few historic examples I'd give more hit dice. But that's more because he's a Hero than because he's a king. I'd give Arthur more, too. But I don't consider a soft Louis, a battlehardened Henry or a veteran Caesar (Tiberius, say) aren't different enough from each other or the average human for me to do anything but give them my standard 2 hit dice.
I can't answet that first question, since I've never considered whether or not the king has a champion. That's a real oversight on my part, since the idea has an obvious place in the setting. I mean, how have I not introduced a sports reference by holding a tournament where Adventuring parties compete to be the King's World Champions? And, oh! Now I can answer that first question.
The king's champions would indeed have class levels if the players won the tournament, probably not otherwise. I've already statted up roughly dozen rival delvers, because the setting heavily involves the PCs (mostly) friendly competition with other parties. I've given each between 2 and 8 hit dice. I didn't build them with class levels, though, because, again, it takes much to long.
Oh, and the closest thing to a court wizard is the sage who is acting as a primary quest giver by asking the players to map out the dungeon. Despite being fundamental to the campaign, he still hasn't been given a statblock, existing in my notes as nothing but a name. And so like the king, he's got 2 hit dice.
Dragons have killed more PCs than any other encounter in my experience. I fundamentally disagree with that should. I'm also wholly uninterested in discussing shoulds.
My favorite part of EnWorld, though, is reading about other people's experiences:
This sounds fun. If my players ever wind up facing too many devil warmages (the megadungeon is simply lousy with devils! The players are lucky if they can get in a short rest without being rudely interrupted) I should give them some illusion or enchantment stuff.
i have hardly ever seen a game where aging mattered to the adventurer - exception being when you have age as a resource that can be burned by attacks and so forth.
traveller let age be a chargen limitation - your character could get more rounds of skills pre-game but each pushed you close to age impacts on abilities.
But i believe for the most part things like "but not extending lifespan" are *not* geared at PC adventurers but at setting consistency.
if a spell can extene dyour lifetime, why would folks go become liches and such to extend their lifespan?
In order for some choices to make sense, there needs to not be easier less problematic alternatives.
But i would not necessarily let this play into the concept of a class ability either - and leave it to being more a part of background legend.
For the transmuter it seems a flavor thing tacked onto a list of useful options.
For the monk, i dont get it but it may be Ok as just a flavor bit and not an intended "power feature." it seems like there should be more weight there than just food, water and age if it is meant as an actual class ability. Maybe ki points vs exhaustion?
Agreed. I for one absolutely love the fact that 5e has not given NPCs class levels. You need a king's champion? No problem: use a Knight, a Veteran, or (if it's a truly powerful king) a Champion (VGtM). No need for class levels. You need a court wizard? Use the Mage. Ditto with clerics and Priests. Switch spells around all you like, but you still don't need class levels to embody NPCs.
If you want to do that for your game, that's on you. But you don't need them to embody those characters, and they certainly aren't necessarily shoulds.
Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Indeed. I find it surprising that there's any fuss about this. Even in 1e & 2e, there were several entries under "Men" in the Monster Manual/Mostrous Compendium/Monstrous Manual for NPCs without class levels, and those entries that did many were "treat as fighter of x level".
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