Revamping the Warlock - Page 2
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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk Diesel View Post
    Yea, I hadn't considered it at first, but it would go a long way to eliminating the palilocks and the coffeelocks.



    It's a fair question. I think the way it is presented is that Warlocks should play similarly with similar roles to Sorcerers or Wizards, when in reality I see them being more equivalent to Rogues or Monks.



    I don't know that I would go half-caster. I like thinking of Warlocks with tons of at-will spell abilities, which is where cantrips and most invocations come in.

    I agree that the spell granting invocations can be a problem. But I think the best way to solve that would be to wrap those into your patron. Currently, patrons provide options for bonus spells that warlocks could select (but don't have to) with their Pact Magic. Instead, provide level appropriate spell invocations themed around their Patron bonus spells. This limits the number that they can get, but also doesn't force the choice while allowing Patrons to have themed invocations. Then the only other way to gain spell per rest invocations would be Mystic Arcanum / Greater Invocations.

    Of course, this would then also necessitate a change to the Warlock capstone.
    FWIW

    I agree in play i describe warlocks as spell fighters - the spam spell attacks like fighters spam wpn attacks - with the hexblade being realky the more direct "my spell looks like a weapon" variety.

    I personally dont think invocations for low-end limited at will spells or bigger level appropriate once per SR spells are a problem

    But...

    Absolutely have more patron specific and boon specific invocations and have all the spell ones divided among those.

    As an eyeball estimate i would start with every oddlevel being an invocation odds like sneak attack dice.

    Every even level being a pact or patron feature alternating.

    I would consider a design where each patron had features fueled by "boon points" and boon points were gained based on your pact choice by LONG REST plus pact specific means.

    This create a semi-mechanical manifestation of "services" in that doing these pact specific things can replenish some points during short rests.

    Perhaos tome might be submitting scrolls to the master by means of ritual destruction.

    Perhaps chain might be something to do with sacrificing beasts fey etc by ritual.

    Perhaps Fiend involves sacrificing something holy or unholy?

    Just off the cuff ideas. But they should be there for occasional quick surges not assumed everyday.

    However, in truth, that may make a class festure too campsign dependent. So a nice idea with potential flaws.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk Diesel View Post
    I don't know that I would go half-caster. I like thinking of Warlocks with tons of at-will spell abilities, which is where cantrips and most invocations come in. And with the elimination of Pact Magic at first level, it creates design space for Eldritch Blast as a separate ability with Patron choice and cantrips. Then level 2 you get access to invocations plus Hex as a class ability (1/short rest, lasts a minute, no concentration).
    That's fair. I don't know if you're open to third-party, but I'm currently playing a warmage, which is a class focused on cantrips and additional at-will or short rest abilities.

  3. #13
    I like that the Warlock is not just a different spell list. Having a different mechanic changes the style of play of course, but a different class should have a different style of play. In prior editions, players customized what they wanted with feats but those are few in 5E. The invocations are great that way. I hope as new settings and other books come out we see more options there.

  4. #14
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    Most Warlock fixing can be done with some adjustments to invocations. Some invocations are great, some are a waste of space on the page. In my game, I wound up combining many of them.

    For example: Detect Magic at Will, Read any Writing, and Share Sense with another person all became one invocation. I also combined the levitate and jump at will invocations. All of the spells ones simply added that spell to my list, if I'm blowing an invocation slot on it I see no reason at all to limit it to 1/day. I put all the eldritch blast invocations together, but still providing those benefits at the prereq levels for the original invocation.

    With those changes honestly the warlock looks pretty good.
    Last edited by Stalker0; Thursday, 8th November, 2018 at 11:24 PM.

  5. #15
    The Warlock seems to be very polarizing - you either love the class or hate it. Now, I may be biased because I love the warlock, but I think this is as it should be. I generally prefer things to be the best they can for their target audience, even at the cost of being less appealing to those not specifically targeted. Deeper, narrower appeal is always better than broader, shallower appeal in my opinion. So I love the fact that the Warlock works so differently from any other caster. I wish the Sorcerer was just as different from the Wizard, and the Barbarian as different from the Fighter. It would make the game much more interesting to me if all classes played as significantly differently from the others as the Warlock does from the other casters.

    So, for me, the Warlock doesnít really need fixing. But, I donít want to come into the thread just to poo-pooh itís premise and not contribute anything. I think if youíre looking at removing pact magic from the Warlock, you are definitely going to want to beef up the stuff it can do at-will. I think Invocations become sort of the core feature of the class. I might recommend giving all Warlocks the ability to cast spells as rituals (and only as rituals, unless an Invocation gives them another way) by default, instead of locking it behind Pact of the Tome. Iíd recommend taking a look at the DnD next playtest version of the Warlock. Instead of Pact Magic it had two Patronís Favors, which it recovered on a short rest, and could spend to fuel various Invocations as well as to cast spells. It was also really neat how Invocations came with little alterations to your characterís appearance, like Witchís Marks.

  6. #16
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    Take the Warlock
    Take the Sorcerer
    Mash the two together.
    Ideally, you would get a short-rest full caster, featuring invocations (where metamagic would end up), an expansive and unique spell list, and magic oozing out of every gland of their body all the time. Having a patron would be an origin option for your bloodline (as opposed to having your grandpappy be a tentacle monster from the far realm). Finally, we could trim down that weirdness with the Pact Boon functioning as a not-quite second subclass.

  7. #17
    The problem is that people play the Warlock as a bad archer rather than a spellcaster.

    At 5th level where a Wizard has 4/3/2 (+3 levels of slots) the Warlock has 0/0/6.

    Total spell levels are 19 vs 18 but higher level spells are much more powerful than lower level ones. So the Warlock is a much more powerful spellcaster than the Wizard but they have less flexibility in their spells. That is where Pacts and Invocations come in.

    Wasting high level slots and concentration on Hex and Invocations on a cantrip is the problem, not the class itself.

  8. #18
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    Personally, since its inception I hace really loved the Warlock. But after playing one in a long-term D&D campaign, I just found it underwhelming. This may have been in part because the game did not get many short rests, but I always felt like I never had enough spell slots. My warlock didn't really shine in combat or out of combat, and often felt overshadowed by the otger players' characters.

    I do think removing Pact Magic and expanding the Invocations will allow the warlock to shine better, without being a one trick pony with eldritch blast or hex (which I envision both to be class features rather than options). Expanding Invocations will also allow the Warlock to function more closely to its 3.5 version and can allow greater customization without forcing a player to feel the need to invest in Eldritch blast or hex, since they will already be part of the package. Additionally, I really like the idea how spell-per-rest invocations can allow the patrons to have themed invocations to enhance their flavor rather than with themed spell options. Mystic Arcanum then can just become level gated spell-per-long rest invocations, thus allowing even more flexibility with how a player wants their warlock to function.

    I do like the Pacts though. While they seem like odd secondary archetypes, they offer some good flavor. Additionally I already have a lot of homebrew invocations that expand what is available for Pact specific invocations.

  9. #19
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    I love my Tome Warlock but I do wish she had both a larger selection of spells known and more spell slots.

    I kitbashed a shadow Warlock by taking the fey Warlock misty escape (re-purposed as a bonus action port from shadow to shadow) and the fiendish Warlock temporary hit points. I took Arcane Initiate for burning hands (which we ruled can count as a Warlock spell for multiclassing to effectively give her one extra daily spell slot). I then picked invocations to give her at will mage armour and levitate and devil's sight. She has a crap load of at will magic.

    My only beef is the lack of shadow themed spells available to add to her spells known list.

    An invocation allowing Tome Warlocks to add extra low level mystic arcarnum spell slots of normal level would go some way to teasing up her magic.

  10. #20
    The game doesn't work if you aren't taking short rests.

    Fix that.

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