In most cases you just want to increase monster numbers for a larger party. However 4 > 5 is a tier break and IMO Forge of Fury (written for 4 ca 3rd level PCs) cannot easily be redesigned to work well with 8 5th level PCs, because of the tier-break effect. You would basically have to swap out all the monsters. Maybe leave the orcs as easily defeatable, and Troglodytes > Lizardmen would help. The Duergar are ok as a threat if you increase their numbers. A young black dragon is no threat to 8 5th level PCs; if you want it to be threat you could use an adult black dragon but that might well kill some PCs.
Scaling for a large group
criticalfumble
Explorer
Yeah I'd pretty much resigned myself to some significant rework. Was thinking of tossing in a couple Tanarukks with the orcs near the door, and swapping the bridge guards for some number of Orc Red Fang of Shargaas riding giant bats (that seems like it would be pretty epic as they try to cross). Also pillaged the idea of the leader on the first level being an Oni. Some cool possibilities there. As for the dragon, it would be a jump in power with potentially lethal consequences, but I think the group can roll with it. Wouldn't be the first TPK, and they are fun in their own way.
Those all sound like good ideas.
I suggest increasing the amount of magic weapons and armour, and increase some of the pluses, maybe even make the final weapon from +2 to a +3 sword.
Edit: Running a Duergar-heavy adventure recently, I just gave the leaders 2 attacks and this worked well. You could give all the FoF duergar expedition 2 attacks & a +1 CR bump.
** minor spoilers for LMoP **
Hi everyone. In a couple months, I will get to DM face to face for a rather large group of 8 players. I've been gaming with some of them as far back as AD&D and the early 80's. Others probably play D&D only this one time each year, and have played a handful of times. It's a large group, and a diverse one in terms of experience.
We've taken their characters through LMoP, and they are now fifth level, cooling their heels in Phandalin. As a hook to move the story forward, I've led them to believe that the problem with the forge of spells in the mines that causes its enchantments to be only temporary is that the forge must be fed with truly high quality (albeit non-magical) gear such as the finest dwarven forged armor and elven blades in order to work correctly. My intention was to have Gundren dispatch them in search of another party he'd sent to procure such items, or failing that, metal smiths of the highest skill. This second group had been dispatched some time ago, but has yet to return.
I was going to use this as a springboard into the Forge of Fury (although with today's release, I am sorely tempted to somehow drop them into the Undermountain instead). Problem is, not only FoF for characters a couple levels lower but also for a reasonable number of them. I was going to scale the encounters a bit, as I had done for LMoP, but I don't simply want to throw more mooks at the party and turn it into a grindy chore. I could also swap out the existing monsters for a similar number of more beefy ones, and I have found a couple good posts about that and FoF specifically.
What advice do you have for scaling for groups this large and keeping things fun?
As a side note, I did a quick check on Kobold Fight Club and figured out that XP / encounter difficulty wise, a group of 8 5th level characters equates more or less to a group of 4 8th level characters. Looking at adventures for 8th level characters, it causes me to think that this may be about more than sheer XP. Some of those 8th level appropriate monsters are a bit nasty.
Thanks!
One of the more solid bits of advice from the CR system is that the CR are a threshold based system and throwing higher CR at parties risks unexpected results due to the adversaries being able to do things the PCs cannot counter. this can be from spells that they cannot cope with or from just a high level of damage in single turns.
Consider what a few counterspells from an 8th level caster would do to the primary caster of a 5th level group. if it managed to eliminate those two (maybe four if there are two arcanists) 3rd level attacks then that is a lot of offense from the party just gone and no chance of it failing as the PCs have no 4th level spells.
Consider how things will go if even one CR7-8 monster scores a crit on one of its big attacks in a turn and hits with others as well.
You can get away with it but you have to be quite selective with the choices you make and the circumstances.
My experience says against double the number of PCs, use three to five times the usual numbers of same CR foes is a more balanced event - three if its all at once and four to five if its an "extended encounter aka "waves". If you throw in some higher CR varmints (by one or two), cut back a wave.
Unfortunately, that seems to be a model of combat that some want to avoid because it is slow to run through even though it can produce a lot of dramatic moments, shifts and opportunities for PCs to make choices that can really make a difference such as flee or engage the next wave.
its also very interesting to see where the "bigger" waves aka the boss part comes into play. having it hit early or in the middle can produce a very different fight than the more typical waves waves then boss.
criticalfumble
Explorer
Food for thought! Within reason I can probably soft pedal some moderately more difficult monsters, especially if the players haven't seen them before to know what they could do "full throttle", but I should think carefully about which high CR monsters I choose.
Yup.
Also one more tidbit, I find it good to almost always include mixed encounters with more than one type. That not only makes it interesting but tends to scale back some excessive outputs of a particular creature ability happens to outperform against your group.
Quickleaf
Legend
Keep in mind that "grind" is a perception-based issue. If a negotiation, puzzle, or a combat takes 90 minutes, but everyone was engaged and having fun during that time, then it wasn't really a "grind."I was going to use this as a springboard into the Forge of Fury (although with today's release, I am sorely tempted to somehow drop them into the Undermountain instead
I've regularly run for a group of 6, 7, or 8. Here are some of my tips:
- Don't worry about making every encounter challenging. Letting the players totally curb stomp the monsters every now and then is good for pacing. For example, the first encounter in Forge of Fury are 2 grumbling orcs guarding The Mountain Door; I'd totally leave that as is, making the challenge not be one of tactical power but of cleverly, swiftly, and quietly dealing with these guards.
- Similarly, don't make every combat's goal be "kill all monsters." That might require some elbow grease running a combat-focused adventure like Forge of Fury. Varied objectives encourage varied approaches and can divine the players between (a) fighting monsters and (b) completing their objective (which might involve taking other actions). If everything looks like a nail, then of course they'll use a hammer. Variety keeps things fun.
- Before upping the number of monsters, using higher CR monsters, or modifying monsters' stat blocks...before taking that step, make encounters harder with smarter monster tactics & challenging terrain/hazards. For example, in The Mountain Door Area 3: The Rift Hall, there's a rope bridge spanning a 200-ft-deep chasm with 2 orcish archers on the far side. The text seems to imply the orcs throw javelins, but it's a rope bridge, so why wouldn't they just cut it? In my DM notes, I'd jot down: One orc provides covering fire while other hacks at the Rope Bridge: AC 10, HP 22, immune bludgeoning, poison, psychic, resistance piercing.
- For significant combats, I generally include one twist/development for parties of 3-5 players. For larger parties I include two or even three twists/developments. These are events I introduce roughly halfway or one-third of the way through the combat to keep things fresh. For example in The Mountain Door Area 9: Shaman's Lair, you might have the first development be the shaman making a "wall of alchemist's fire" and releasing the stirges, while you might have the second development be rescued slaves panicking and running away from the stirges (potentially endangering themselves)...or the shaman might flee through the secret door.
- Avoid magic items just lying around. If during your DM prep you notice a magic item near an area with marginally clever monsters, equip one of those monsters with the magic item.
I've learned that those encounter difficulty rating rules are not too reliable. I've found the the Adventuring Day XP guidelines on DMG p84 to be more reliable.
Be aware that there are plenty of nasty low CR monsters like shadows & intellect devourers (ability score damage), hobgoblins & ogres (hitting above their weight class), and basilisks (petrification). Yes, you do have a broader "toolbox" of monsters at higher level, but you can use "weak" monsters to great effect (Tucker's Kobolds being the classic example).
Also, it's a cinch to take monsters like the carrion crawler – whose paralyzation power was neutered since AD&D/3e with a "save each round" clause – and make it closer to the AD&D version by not granting ongoing saves. Instead you could allow a PC with Nature/Medicine proficiency to recognize an antidote fungus or something like that, thus requiring another player take action to un-paralyze their companion. Larger parties can afford these sorts of ancillary actions.
One thing that I think often goes unmentioned in situations of large parties like this (and is something I've found to be pretty standard and typical) is that the more PCs you have... the most people available to get PCs stabilized and/or back on their feet.
This is why I personally don't have a problem with throwing much higher CR monsters at a party of 7 or 8 players... because even if a monster does so much damage that it can knock a PC to 0 HP in like a round or two... there's still little to no chance of that PC dying (or heck, even failing a saving throw) because invariably there's someone around and available to stabilize him or heal him.
A party of 8 PCs means you have a pretty good chance of having a Cleric, a Bard, a Paladin, and even an extra Ranger or Druid in there... all of whom have Cure Wounds or Healing Word or Lay on Hands variants... to use their turn to bring people back to consciousness. And this doesn't even take into account the amount of healing potions you've probably allowed them all to acquire in an effort to keep things "fair", which means the fighters, rogues, and monks can all run around feeding those draughts to PCs who are unconscious too.
Building any sort of tension in combat with 8 PCs is just really, really tough. There's just too many bodies available to keep people from making deaths saves. And even if you try and mitigate that by throwing more monsters in the fray (so in theory there are at least one, if not two, monsters on every PC to keep them busy), most PCs will be able to just take the chance of absorbing Opportunity Attacks to get over to their downed friends and heal them. Because those monsters you threw at them just won't be powerful enough to cause a real threat. That downed PC then gets up, Disengages further out of the melee, and if they are a class with healing, will then just keep healing the rest of the group while the fight continues.
Look at how much in-combat healing your party has. That'll give you a better idea of just much higher CR monsters you can use.
This is why I personally don't have a problem with throwing much higher CR monsters at a party of 7 or 8 players... because even if a monster does so much damage that it can knock a PC to 0 HP in like a round or two... there's still little to no chance of that PC dying (or heck, even failing a saving throw) because invariably there's someone around and available to stabilize him or heal him.
A party of 8 PCs means you have a pretty good chance of having a Cleric, a Bard, a Paladin, and even an extra Ranger or Druid in there... all of whom have Cure Wounds or Healing Word or Lay on Hands variants... to use their turn to bring people back to consciousness. And this doesn't even take into account the amount of healing potions you've probably allowed them all to acquire in an effort to keep things "fair", which means the fighters, rogues, and monks can all run around feeding those draughts to PCs who are unconscious too.
Building any sort of tension in combat with 8 PCs is just really, really tough. There's just too many bodies available to keep people from making deaths saves. And even if you try and mitigate that by throwing more monsters in the fray (so in theory there are at least one, if not two, monsters on every PC to keep them busy), most PCs will be able to just take the chance of absorbing Opportunity Attacks to get over to their downed friends and heal them. Because those monsters you threw at them just won't be powerful enough to cause a real threat. That downed PC then gets up, Disengages further out of the melee, and if they are a class with healing, will then just keep healing the rest of the group while the fight continues.
Look at how much in-combat healing your party has. That'll give you a better idea of just much higher CR monsters you can use.
Ralif Redhammer
Legend
In particular, I'd recommend monsters with AOE attacks. Those really help even the playing field. Increasing their HP is also a good idea. A large group can take down a single monster very quickly. Using more monsters in an encounter makes it last longer, but you don't always want that.
Even out of combat, with my large group, I tend to go around the table in an "initiative" stule round so that each PC gets a turn, even if it's an RP situation.
Good luck! I run a weekly group of eight, and it's pretty much pressing my limit.
Even out of combat, with my large group, I tend to go around the table in an "initiative" stule round so that each PC gets a turn, even if it's an RP situation.
Good luck! I run a weekly group of eight, and it's pretty much pressing my limit.
criticalfumble
Explorer
So much to think about - thanks everyone for your suggestions! The wheels are really turning. In many cases, it sounds like choosing the the right, somewhat tougher monster, will be a good bet. I'm also thinking about ways to let things come in waves, and to work in some story line in the encounters, and not just have this be a hack fest.
The idea of reverting some monsters to their meaner AD&D equivalents will probably be appreciated by the more seasoned players, too.
The idea of reverting some monsters to their meaner AD&D equivalents will probably be appreciated by the more seasoned players, too.
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