On Wishes and Magic Item Shoppes and Gold: The Paradox of Choice

Kurotowa

Legend
Hesitating to pull the trigger on limited use items is hardly unique to D&D. I've seen jokes for decades about finishing JRPGs with an inventory full of powerful rare consumables that were never used no matter how hard the boss fight got. Thrifty sorts like me stock those things for a rainy day and then always say, "Well this is more of a light drizzle, I ought to save it for when things are really bad."

I've seen a few things that can shake players out of that mindset. One is when the DM says straight out to the group, "This is a climactic boss fight, don't hold anything back because they won't either and failure is a real option here." I don't mind it because narratively it's the same as protagonists getting that special tingle that tells them now is the time to pull out the special plot devices, and it does a good job sending the group scrambling to ready all those powerful one-use items they've been saving.

Another scenario I've seen shake people out of that mindset is a setup you don't often find in D&D, one where the players belong to an organization sending them on missions which outfits them rather than them collecting their own gear. When you have to turn in everything you don't use at the end of the adventure, players are often downright eager for an opportunity to use the cool toys they've been issued for the job.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Hesitating to pull the trigger on limited use items is hardly unique to D&D. I've seen jokes for decades about finishing JRPGs with an inventory full of powerful rare consumables that were never used no matter how hard the boss fight got. Thrifty sorts like me stock those things for a rainy day and then always say, "Well this is more of a light drizzle, I ought to save it for when things are really bad."
I've seen a couple of different approaches to this sort of thing, but I struggle to adapt them to the tabletop.

The first is to put a hard limit on how many you can carry. If enemies commonly drop healing potions, but you can only carry 15 of them, then you're going to start using them in order to make space. If you can only carry 5 elixirs, and you're already up to 4, then you might use one during a drizzle because you're confident that you'll find more before you need them again.

The second is to attach a tangible, permanent benefit toward using the item. If every elixir you drink raises your maximum HP by +3, then that incentivizes finding an excuse to use it early.

I'm not quite sure how to adapt either to D&D, though. Maybe you could do the HP thing, with the biggest healing potions, since those are rare and a couple of HP is fairly negligible. I've also thought about adding expiration dates to potions, but that seems like a lot of bookkeeping.
 


GreyLord

Legend
Back in 1e and 2e gold was incredibly important. If you didn't waste it on luxuries, eventually you could build a homestead or base of operations (such as an Inn), or build a stronghold (such as a Castle), settle land and build up a duchy or kingdom, or even greater. You then had expenses like an army, servants, and more.

I think this is incredibly pertinent for anyone who plays 5e as I do not see why they couldn't do the same thing in a 5e game if they had found a great enough treasure horde, or collected enough over their adventuring careers and then a Ruler gave them land as Lords and Ladies, but they still need to tame it and develop it.

---------------------------------------------------------------

With Rings of Wishes I think it's the availability. If this is the only one they will ever get, they will probably be more hestitant...but the second they find another one...BINGO!!!

If they feel that there are chances to find others, they will be far more willing to go out on a limb and be risky when they find a limited use item of high importance.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
I bring this up because I was thinking about the threads on magic item shoppes and/or gold in 5e. More often than not, there is a discussion (and/or argument) between those who want more detailed rules for spending gold, and those who argue that gold has so many uses. I tend to fall in the latter camp (my campaigns always have uses for gold), but then I realized that this is precisely because I am used to campaigns that spend gold on things other than magic items, and I have rules and heuristics for doing so, and my players have well-defined goals for their PCs that involve the use of gold. But maybe I'm just used to that, and the idea of spending gold on absolutely anything causes the same paralysis in some players that wishes cause in me.

Across multiple editions and groups, I've observed that some of my players are more comfortable than others with open-ended decisions. I've seen that varying comfort level in multiple contexts, such as creating character concepts, strategic-level IC decisions in non-linear/sandbox campaigns, and use of strategic resources (e.g. gold, influence, etc.) in any campaign type.

Interestingly, I find that limited-use items almost always seem to fall into the "strategic resources" category, even if they're combat-only (and thus more tactical than strategic). I suspect that's because the decision regarding in which encounter to consume a limited-use, non-refreshing tactical resource is itself a strategic decision. (By contrast, the decision regarding in which encounter to use a limited-use character ability is comparatively more tactical due to the fact that abilities refresh.) I theorize that players less comfortable making such an open-ended strategic decision are far less likely to ever use the item, just as some players never get around to using gold or accumulated favors from NPCs.

I found that a semi-reliable method to assist less-comfortable players in making such open-ended decisions is to provide a detailed set of available examples, even/especially if the examples are not intended to be exhaustive. For example, it's not uncommon for me to recruit a new, totally-inexperienced player to my game in a social setting where the books aren't on hand. For some such players, a brief description of the game's setting is enough for them to come up a full-fledged character concept that we can later work to model in the mechanics of 5e. For other such players, they don't have any idea where to start. For these players, I tell them to wait until they have a chance to read the first few chapters of the PHB--seeing the examples is almost always enough to give them an idea. Interestingly, I would guess that over 50% of the time, that idea is not one of the standard archetypes in the PHB--the examples gave them the necessary starting point, but they were not then constrained by those examples. (Admittedly, any one DM's sample of players is unlikely to be representative.)

A similar thing happened in a 3.5 campaign where a player was having a hard time contributing to the group's plans to refurbish and occupy a fortress. Giving the player the Stronghold Builder's Guide fixed the problem, even though most of her (awesome) subsequent ideas weren't options from the book.

So while my games certainly fall into the category where there is plenty to do with gold, I'm also in favor of having more published uses for gold, including both non-magical strategic resources and more example magic items. They're useful inspirational tools for the players that would benefit from the inspiration. Even for the players who have plenty of ideas on their own, if the listed options have well-defined, utility-based prices, they provide useful points of comparison to let the player filter their wide-ranging ideas for feasibility without having to inquire with the DM on each possibility.

For example, let's say a player wants to add an observatory to their stronghold. In 5e right now, there isn't much in the way of guidelines as to what that would cost. Figuring out if the player can afford it would involve (depending on the campaign style) either inquiring with the DM OOC about if it might be affordable, or else IC tracking down tradesmen to get quotes that may or may not be affordable (or honest!). By contrast, if 5e had more detail about strongholds, while there may not be a listed price for an observatory, there would likely be a price for a ballista tower (i.e. weight-bearing tower with large, rotating special equipment) to serve as a starting point. That would give the player some idea regarding affordability in advance (and a method for gauging the appropriateness of IC tradesmen's bids). For a single example this doesn't save much time, but if the player is deciding between a dozen different potential uses for their gold, the easier access to comparison points dramatically speeds up the process of deciding which potential uses are worth following up on. (And for games where pricing inquiries must be made IC, avoids turning the game into Construction and Contractors just to discover if an option is feasible.)

(Note: Relying on previous editions' utility-based pricing can sometimes be a substitute, but the ability to make useful comparisons is lessened due to needing to adjust for differences in utility between editions. New players may not have suitable familiarity with both editions to be able to make that adjustment at all.)

In a similar vein, there is one final advantage I see to having expanded published uses for gold, but it's a personal quirk. I like expedition planning when it's just a question of juggling weight and affordability and doesn't involve tons of research into imperfect substitutes. In 3.0/3.5 I could get out Arms and Equipment and the Magic Items Compendium and go nuts selecting fun, minor gear options for an overly-prepared or pack-rat character. In 5e, without such published options, each and every such item requires the DM to set a price (and weight, if it's being tracked), and it's not worth asking the DM to do that for unimportant items just so that I can choose between them. I'd rather use the DM's time inquiring about out-of-book possibilities that will be central to the plot (or at least fun for the party) rather than the minor items on my personal equipment list. (And no, the DM saying "spend 100gp and we'll just assume you have any minor item you can think of" isn't a good susbtitute, because there isn't the same sense of accomplishment in having exactly the right minor item at exactly the right time.)

Thanks for making this thread! It's given me a chance to formalize the ideas above that have just been floating around hapahazardly in my head. Next time I give the my PCs a limited-use item I'm going to encourage them to make in advance the strategic choice about what sorts of circumstances would justify its use. Hopefully that will help make sure the items get used (or at least that the players are satsified that they were prepared for a specific contingency, even if it never happened to arise).
 

Stalker0

Legend
Hesitating to pull the trigger on limited use items is hardly unique to D&D. I've seen jokes for decades about finishing JRPGs with an inventory full of powerful rare consumables that were never used no matter how hard the boss fight got. Thrifty sorts like me stock those things for a rainy day and then always say, "Well this is more of a light drizzle, I ought to save it for when things are really bad."

I've seen a few things that can shake players out of that mindset. One is when the DM says straight out to the group, "This is a climactic boss fight, don't hold anything back because they won't either and failure is a real option here." I don't mind it because narratively it's the same as protagonists getting that special tingle that tells them now is the time to pull out the special plot devices, and it does a good job sending the group scrambling to ready all those powerful one-use items they've been saving.

Another scenario I've seen shake people out of that mindset is a setup you don't often find in D&D, one where the players belong to an organization sending them on missions which outfits them rather than them collecting their own gear. When you have to turn in everything you don't use at the end of the adventure, players are often downright eager for an opportunity to use the cool toys they've been issued for the job.

Agreed, some people have a hoarding mentality, that's not a dnd thing, its an anything thing.
 

delericho

Legend
The first is to put a hard limit on how many you can carry. If enemies commonly drop healing potions, but you can only carry 15 of them, then you're going to start using them in order to make space. If you can only carry 5 elixirs, and you're already up to 4, then you might use one during a drizzle because you're confident that you'll find more before you need them again.

A good idea. Of course, encumbrance rules suck, so there's that problem to deal with first. :)

The second is to attach a tangible, permanent benefit toward using the item. If every elixir you drink raises your maximum HP by +3, then that incentivizes finding an excuse to use it early.

I like that. You could give a small but non-trivial XP award for using up these items.

I've also thought about adding expiration dates to potions, but that seems like a lot of bookkeeping.

Yep, this is something I like, too - use it or lose it.

All that said, I'm left with a big question: do I really care? If I give the PCs a bunch of potions that they never quite use up, the only people who are missing out are the PCs. So it inevitably ends up as a 'problem' I can't be bothered solving. :)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So I've been pondering the lack of success of the Ring of Wishes in the survivor thread, and the various comments people have about the lack of utility of gold in 5e, and I thought that there might be a commonality on these issues that I had previously missed.

Related to the idea of the paradox of choice - the idea that an abundance of choice is not necessarily a good thing, and can cause anxiety and unhappiness and, on occasion, paralysis in terms of decision-making.*

I was reminded of a campaign I ran in mid-80s. I had recently finished the Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and I had introduced an NPC to the group. For those of you familiar with the series, he was similar to Vain; for those of you unfamiliar, this was a "deus ex machina" device/NPC that the party knew would be important at some point later in the campaign, would otherwise not interact with them, and that they could command one time (1 time!) to do anything. Kind of a "get out of jail free card."

You may know where this is going. The party had encounters. Characters died. There were numerous opportunities to "use" the NPC that would have saved the party untold suffering and grief. But they didn't. In the end, the NPC served its final purpose without the party ever using it. Afterwards, they told me that while it was a cool campaign and idea, they absolutely HATED having that one use, because they always thought there might be a better use for it .... and then they felt robbed because they never used it!

Which is similar to how I always felt about wishes. ESPECIALLY in 1e. I mean, sure, it was nice to have the whole "use a wish to raise a score one point up to 16" rule. But other than that .... the sheer limitlessness of the power in so many ways (except those ways, like ability scores, in which it was limited) made them nearly unusable - at least, for me.

I bring this up because I was thinking about the threads on magic item shoppes and/or gold in 5e. More often than not, there is a discussion (and/or argument) between those who want more detailed rules for spending gold, and those who argue that gold has so many uses. I tend to fall in the latter camp (my campaigns always have uses for gold), but then I realized that this is precisely because I am used to campaigns that spend gold on things other than magic items, and I have rules and heuristics for doing so, and my players have well-defined goals for their PCs that involve the use of gold. But maybe I'm just used to that, and the idea of spending gold on absolutely anything causes the same paralysis in some players that wishes cause in me.

Thoughts?

I think that's a good theory on why people are having gold issues in 5e. For me, I have not had any issues with their gold or wishes. I come from a viewpoint of, "If it's on my sheet and I never use it, it's useless, so I might as well use it during this appropriate situation." Sure, a better situation might come, but one may not and I'm not going to hold back over a maybe.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Put me in the camp of players who hate finite-use items. Unless that item has the ability to permanently alter the status quo, it's effectively worthless. Given that challenges will only increase in difficulty over time, using an item in order to get through these lesser trials now, will mean that I have no chance of surviving the greater threats later on; especially since I will no longer have that item, to help me.

I've found it to be the exact opposite. The Potion of Climbing is only really useful now, because later on when the challenges increase, so do our abilities and someone will be able to fly, dimension door, or use some other ability that makes the potion useless.
 

I've found it to be the exact opposite. The Potion of Climbing is only really useful now, because later on when the challenges increase, so do our abilities and someone will be able to fly, dimension door, or use some other ability that makes the potion useless.
I was thinking more about strong healing potions, or other things that are too good to use.

With things like potions and scrolls that don't do anything useful, I default to selling for cheap. The Potion of Climbing, for example, is not useful enough to warrant using. In a party of four people, giving one of them a climb speed for an hour is unlikely to help at any point before reaching level 5. I mean, I'll hold onto it if I can't sell it, but remembering to write it on my character sheet at every level is rarely worth the effort involved. A pound of gold would have significantly more utility.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Upcoming Releases

Top