D&D 5E The Fighter: tweaking Indomitable to work in all the Pillars.

Eubani said:

Unfortunately Action Surge proves far too useful in combat to use it elsewhere, as a fighter you already are behind compared to other martials for most of the game without gimping yourself further.

Click to expand...

They re-charge on a short rest, and you're already out of combat, so the odds are you can re-charge it after use prior to the next combat. I disagree they are behind other martials but regardless in use I don't think Action Surge can't be used out of combat more...it's already used out of combat plenty by some players as it is.

Saelorn said:

I'm not a huge fan of combining combat resources with non-combat resources. I'd prefer if they just had an entirely distinct feature, which worked like Indomitable for skills, and had its own usage allowance.

Click to expand...

Action Surge is not a combat resource. People USE it in combat, I think because they perceive the Fighter to be about combat, but the ability is not a strictly combat ability, and plenty of players use it for out of combat challenges as well.

Is there anything which would break or work unusually if we simply added some battle master superiority dice options for out of combat functions? Seems like you could add a die to an ability check pretty easily. In fact, adding advantage to someone else's check AND adding the die seems balanced given the other manuevers available.

doublepost

Mistwell said:

Action Surge is not a combat resource. People USE it in combat, I think because they perceive the Fighter to be about combat, but the ability is not a strictly combat ability, and plenty of players use it for out of combat challenges as well.

Click to expand...

Eh. If one pillar determines whether you live or die, and another pillar determines how much you pay for bread, then I'm not going to fault anyone for assuming that a generic resource should be spent in combat.

Mistwell said:

Is there anything which would break or work unusually if we simply added some battle master superiority dice options for out of combat functions? Seems like you could add a die to an ability check pretty easily. In fact, adding advantage to someone else's check AND adding the die seems balanced given the other manuevers available.

Click to expand...

I would suggest half the die for balance. At any rate I believe that Superiority dice and manuevers should of been part of the core fighter and also allow to add to ability checks (and saves thus freeing up the space indomitable takes up).

Eubani said:

Unfortunately Action Surge proves far too useful in combat to use it elsewhere, as a fighter you already are behind compared to other martials for most of the game without gimping yourself further.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I agree, although I don't see the recharge as quite as easy/frequent/assured as Mistwell suggests. At least in my games, you are absolutely not assured of a short rest in between an out of combat scene and a fight. Still, I'd be willing to make short rests shorter if you haven't had a fight since your last rest, to accommodate stuff like this and Warlocks and MOnks in games with a lot more out of combat than combat, etc. Or maybe just allow some freebie usage outside of combat for those games. Basically, you can use it once per short rest outside of combat, as a separate resource? Klunky, but workable for some groups.

Krachek said:

Is it just a new year resolution or skill monkey fighter are becoming a trend?

Click to expand...

People have had these conversations every single year I've been on the internet talking about dnd. So, at least 04. I don't remember how long the Dragonlance Nexus has been around. Wait, no, definately before 03, because I was on slovotskyslaws.com talking about dnd back in high school.

Anyway, this isn't new. Once a post goes up on the topic, others will follow, until it dies down for a while. In no wotc edition of dnd have fighters been so strong in combat that it makes sense to deny them out of combat resources, and yet they always get the bare minimum skills, and no special features for out of combat. 5e actually isn't as bad as some editions, since you've got subclasses with more out of combat stuff, but the two phb subclasses are still pretty lacking in that regard. 4e at least had good Utility Powers, and eventually Martial Practices.

Mistwell said:

They re-charge on a short rest, and you're already out of combat, so the odds are you can re-charge it after use prior to the next combat. I disagree they are behind other martials but regardless in use I don't think Action Surge can't be used out of combat more...it's already used out of combat plenty by some players as it is.

Action Surge is not a combat resource. People USE it in combat, I think because they perceive the Fighter to be about combat, but the ability is not a strictly combat ability, and plenty of players use it for out of combat challenges as well.

Click to expand...

I wonder if we could easily work out how much the average game differs from other games within the average in terms of frequency of short rests. My experience is that your statements about refreshing on a short rest being a frequent use thing seem totally out of line with normal play to me, but might be totally within the norm.

Anyway, I do agree about Action Surge already being a resource that can be used in combat or out of combat, but I think the person who has me blocked (and yes, this is awkward, IMO) has a great point, in that relying on it out of combat puts a strain on the resources that the class relies on to keep up in a fight. I'm not sure that point convinces me that it's a bad idea, though.

Mistwell said:

Is there anything which would break or work unusually if we simply added some battle master superiority dice options for out of combat functions? Seems like you could add a die to an ability check pretty easily. In fact, adding advantage to someone else's check AND adding the die seems balanced given the other manuevers available.

Click to expand...

That would definitely help the BM. I'd add at least 1 Die per tier, if I did that. Or do something fun like, you regain one die when you roll a 20 on a check while using a maneuver.

Eubani said:

I would suggest half the die for balance. At any rate I believe that Superiority dice and manuevers should of been part of the core fighter and also allow to add to ability checks (and saves thus freeing up the space indomitable takes up).

Click to expand...

I don't know about half the die. You want to reduce the number of die while adding to the number of things you can use them for? You're just going to further "punish" players for not specializing in one pillar, which is the opposite of the goal.

I wouldn't mind SD as part of the core fighter, as long as the Champion gets a single, very very simple, mechanic that uses them to either use extra Healing Surges, or add Damage to a successful attack, and that's it. Even that is pushing the level of complexity that a lot of people want from the Champion, though. And the champion isn't at the bottom of subclasses, in popularity, so it's subpar power balance isn't hurting people's fun too much, it seems.

doctorbadwolf said:

I wonder if we could easily work out how much the average game differs from other games within the average in terms of frequency of short rests. My experience is that your statements about refreshing on a short rest being a frequent use thing seem totally out of line with normal play to me, but might be totally within the norm.

Click to expand...

Probably I didn't clarify. I don't think short rests are easy to come by in an environment which is otherwise ripe for combat encounters like a dungeon. I mean that short rests are easier to come by in environments where a lot of skill checks are involved, like political intrigue scenarios or outdoor travel scenarios or pre or post dungeon negotiations with a sponsor or urban setting scenarios. These types of scenarios frequently involve a series of skill checks (what 4e would have treated as a skill challenge) frequently followed by hours or even days of down time or non-strenuous light walking to another location. In those kinds of scenarios, that's where fighters tend to feel the lack of class abilities the most in my experience - and they also happen to be the ones where it's the least risky to use an action surge to assist their skill check during the challenge. And also in those scenarios it's much easier to find an hour of relative inaction than it is in combat-intense locales like a dungeon.

Mistwell said:

Probably I didn't clarify. I don't think short rests are easy to come by in an environment which is otherwise ripe for combat encounters like a dungeon. I mean that short rests are easier to come by in environments where a lot of skill checks are involved, like political intrigue scenarios or outdoor travel scenarios or pre or post dungeon negotiations with a sponsor or urban setting scenarios. These types of scenarios frequently involve a series of skill checks (what 4e would have treated as a skill challenge) frequently followed by hours or even days of down time or non-strenuous light walking to another location. In those kinds of scenarios, that's where fighters tend to feel the lack of class abilities the most in my experience - and they also happen to be the ones where it's the least risky to use an action surge to assist their skill check during the challenge. And also in those scenarios it's much easier to find an hour of relative inaction than it is in combat-intense locales like a dungeon.

Click to expand...

OK, in those scenarios, I just don't track rounds, or resources that refresh any easier than a long rest. Just isn't worth it, IMO. I do note that short rest resources can't be used twice in a single scene/encounter, though, or if two scenes have no narritive time between them. In a fast paced day of intrigue, exploration, etc, you'll still only get a few short rests per day in my games, unless I'm being lenient to help out the short rest classes. So far, most of my games are heavy on long rest stuff, so there's only the one game where I have to do that for the warlock and monk.

Still, you have a point. In your games, do you think that burning an AS to reroll a failed check would be desireable for your fighter players?

doctorbadwolf said:

Still, you have a point. In your games, do you think that burning an AS to reroll a failed check would be desireable for your fighter players?

Click to expand...

Yes I do. In fact, I think a re-roll ability check or save makes sense. Though it starts to step on Luck points and Inspiration.

Personally I'd be perfectly fine with allowing a player to use indomitable to reroll any ability check. Thematically I've always interpreted the ability as "I'm too stubborn to fail this save" anyway, so one could make a reasonable arguement in many cases that they somehow supernaturally assert themselves in a fashion that somehow aids them. Even a knowledge check could be jokingly explained as they think hard enough, fail and then snack themselves in the head, somehow bringing back knowledge of some forgotten time they read or heard about it. Picture the typical joke way of "fixing" a radio/TV by banging in it, except in this case the radio is their head.

Honestly I've often just allowed indomitable to function on ANY save or more like inspiration they get for free in the past anyway, as it's kind of a weak ability as is right now and to be honest I find many players get confused between it and inspiration and bardic inspiration in general. They all sort of tend to get mixed up and al turned into "I have advantage on this check".

...that alo said, I do feel it must be pointed out that the fighter is often underestimated in the social pillar. Yes, you have fewer mechanical fiddly bits like expertise or spells that classes like bard or rogue have, but a fighter with a high charisma is no worse off than a paladin st being social, especially when one considers that getting proficiency in persuasion is easily obtained through backgrounds, the skilled feat and a few fighter subclasses (some of which even grant expertise). Additionally, you have more ability score increases than any other class, and unlike a monk/paladin/cleric/bard, you've got the heath front a high hit die combined WITH not being crazy MAD so pulling out a high charisma and strength is fairly easy, or at least as easy as the paladin + two extra ASIs and while not the best compared to a bard or sorcerer, I'd be hard pressed to argue that paladins are that weak in the social pillar. The fighter just has no abilities that scale directly off of charisma baked in, you merely need to spent one of your extra ability score increases to either get a few extra skill proficiencies, boost your charisma, or pick a feat like inspiring leader...hardly a problem when you've got two extra ones that others dont get. Just give yourself a decent charisma, pick a background or subclass that gives proficiency in persuasion, and roleplay your heart out. The beauty of the fighter is that you dont have to worry about a bunch of complicated mechanics like smite or spell slots, and like a paladin you can still survive being hit in the face when your dice inevitably betray you when and negotiations break down (which is more than I can say for most bards or sorcerers).