The Mechanical Impact of -5/+10

Yunru · Jan 11, 2019

Here's a breakdown of how using -5/+10 affects average damage, when you deal an average damage of X, and need to roll a minimum of Y on the die to hit (N.B. I'll be going lower than 2 because while the chance for success without -5/+10 ceases to change, the chance for success with it continues to change). The value you get is the increase, so a negative means -5/+10 does less damage.

Y	-3	-2	-1	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20
Dmg Diff	9.5	9-0.05X	8.5-0.1X	8-0.15X	7.5-0.2X	7-0.25X	6.5-0.25X	6-0.25X	5.5-0.25X	5-0.25X	4.5-0.25X	4-0.25X	3.5-0.25X	3-0.25X	2.5-0.25X	2-0.25X	1.5-0.25X	1-0.25X	0.5-0.25X	0.5-0.2X	0.5-0.15X	0.5-0.1X	0.5-0.05X	0.5

Gavin O. · Jan 20, 2019

Does the value of Y mean what you need to roll without using -5/+10, or what you need to roll with using it?

Yunru · Jan 20, 2019

Without.

Gavin O. · Jan 21, 2019

Well, let's run some numbers, and see what we can learn:

If you're a level 1 Variant Human Fighter with 16 Strength, Great Weapon style, GWM, and a greatsword, your value for X is 11.33 (4.16+4.16+3), and your base to-hit bonus is +5. You gain DPR using GWM in cases where you need to roll a 10 or lower on your d20, which equates to attacking an AC of 15 or lower. Against a target with 16 AC or higher, it's more effective not to use -5/+10

If you're a level 1 Variant Human Fighter with 16 Dex, Archery Style, Sharpshooter, and a Longbow, your value for X is 7.5 (4.5+3), and your base to-hit bonus is +7. You gain DPR using SS in cases where you need to roll a 12 or lower on your d20, which equated to attacking an AC of 19 or lower. Against targets with an AC of 20 or higher, it's more effective not to use -5/+10

If you're a level 5 Variant Human Barbarian with 18 Strength, Rage, GWM, and a Greatsword, your value for X is 13 (3.5+3.5+4+2) and your base to-hit bonus is +7. You gain DPR using GWM in cases where you need to roll a 9 or lower on your d20, which equates to attacking AC of 16 or lower. Against targets with an AC of 17 or higher, it's more effective not to use -5/+10

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 21, 2019

Sharing this thread here as well, huh? I thought this was already sort of put to bed, but if you want to wake it up again, so be it.

FrogReaver · Jan 21, 2019

Gavin O. said:
Well, let's run some numbers, and see what we can learn:

If you're a level 1 Variant Human Fighter with 16 Strength, Great Weapon style, GWM, and a greatsword, your value for X is 11.33 (4.16+4.16+3), and your base to-hit bonus is +5. You gain DPR using GWM in cases where you need to roll a 10 or lower on your d20, which equates to attacking an AC of 15 or lower. Against a target with 16 AC or higher, it's more effective not to use -5/+10

If you're a level 1 Variant Human Fighter with 16 Dex, Archery Style, Sharpshooter, and a Longbow, your value for X is 7.5 (4.5+3), and your base to-hit bonus is +7. You gain DPR using SS in cases where you need to roll a 12 or lower on your d20, which equated to attacking an AC of 19 or lower. Against targets with an AC of 20 or higher, it's more effective not to use -5/+10

If you're a level 5 Variant Human Barbarian with 18 Strength, Rage, GWM, and a Greatsword, your value for X is 13 (3.5+3.5+4+2) and your base to-hit bonus is +7. You gain DPR using GWM in cases where you need to roll a 9 or lower on your d20, which equates to attacking AC of 16 or lower. Against targets with an AC of 17 or higher, it's more effective not to use -5/+10

Yep but if you are within 1 or 2 of the ac value where GWM becomes better the damage difference is still pretty small.

Yunru · Jan 21, 2019

James Grover said:
Sharing this thread here as well, huh? I thought this was already sort of put to bed, but if you want to wake it up again, so be it.

Check the dates.

smbakeresq · Jan 24, 2019

To encourage use of the feat, I changed the relevant feats to make them more usable like the old Power Attack. You can subtract up to your proficiency bonus to do extra damage:

1. Equal to amount subtracted (one handed weapons or hand crossbow)
2. 1.5x amount subtracted (one handed in two hands, short bow, light crossbow)
3. 2.x amount subtracted (two handed weapons, longbows or heavy crossbow)

For the bows and crossbows I make them build or purchase a stronger weapon to get the bonus. Since they get +2 to hit almost by default it makes the PC do something to get the benefit.

The effect is the feats are used more at the table with less stoppage in play to figure out the optimal usage. The GWM users always shave off some for some bonus damage. The GWM feat second part always applied to any weapon, now the first part does also.

WhosDaDungeonMaster · Jan 24, 2019

Yunru said:
Check the dates.

What does the dates have to do with anything? You posted it in both forum areas since I guess you wanted to make certain everyone could see it.

What I find more interesting is that is apparently took you about two hours to post it to one area after posting it in the first...