D&D 4E In Defense of 4E - a New Campaign Perspective

If we take as a given that HP objectively measure the ability of a creature to withstand a violent impact without falling, the way HP were actually used at many tables throughout every earlier edition, then it means any minion has absolutely zero tolerance for injury. It means a level 11 ogre minion has a much lower tolerance for injury than a level 1 non-minion goblin. If you objectively test their ability to survive a minor nuisance - have a level 1 fighter throw a dagger at each - then the ogre will die from the first hit, every time, while the goblin survives multiple hits.

That's setting aside the nonsense about using different stat blocks to represent the same creature, based on party level, which so many 4E-defenders endorse. At least the designers don't come right out and suggest that technique, in the book. They probably realized how idiotic it would sound.
It isn't idiotic or absurd at all, it is simply practical, and it makes perfectly good narrative sense. There is, in world terms, no such thing as '1 hit point'. Just like you're trying state below, some characters can, and some cannot, withstand some sort of an attack (you can call it 'unit of kinetic energy' if you want, though I think that kind of thinking is also unsupportable, but one thing at a time). The ogre minion is weaker a non-minion ogre. As for the level 1 non-minion goblin, it would be turned to dust by the same attack. First of all its defenses are worthless, and it only has at most about 18 hit points. No level 11 attack is likely to leave it standing. Beyond that THE GOBLIN WOULD ALSO BE REPRESENTED AS A MINION. Why wouldn't it? You'd be playing nonsense with 4e's process to do otherwise. So, as long as you follow that process, you will never have to deal with anything so absurd, and it wouldn't even BE absurd anyway, in all likelihood.

It's not complicated at all. An arrow imparting 8 units of kinetic energy impacts the breastplate of a warrior. The warrior, being an inexperienced novice with a low tolerance for pain, falls unconscious from the impact. A similar arrow, with identical kinetic energy, impacts the breastplate of a more-experienced warrior. That warrior is not significantly impeded by the impact.
I don't buy it. 'hit' means it had its effect. If hit means something different at different levels, then your idea of "things always mean the same in the fiction" is simply absurd. Of course the arrow just bounces off (or doesn't even hit) the higher level PC, but that is exactly what hit points is doing for you, changing the fiction.
 

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The ogre minion is weaker than a non-minion ogre. As for the level 1 non-minion goblin, it would be turned to dust by the same attack. First of all its defenses are worthless, and it only has at most about 18 hit points. No level 11 attack is likely to leave it standing. Beyond that THE GOBLIN WOULD ALSO BE REPRESENTED AS A MINION. Why wouldn't it? You'd be playing nonsense with 4e's process to do otherwise. So, as long as you follow that process, you will never have to deal with anything so absurd, and it wouldn't even BE absurd anyway, in all likelihood.
Put an ogre and a goblin in the same room. How much force does it take to KO the ogre? Is it more or less than the amount of force carried by a single arrow? How much force to KO the goblin? It should take less force to KO the goblin than it does to KO the ogre, right?

That's what I mean by consistency. In every earlier edition, we knew how hard you would have to hit the ogre in order to make it stop moving, and we knew the same in regards to the goblin. It was a consistent HP value. One hit from an arrow would kill a goblin, but not an ogre.

I guess the real question is, why do you believe the goblin should be represented as a minion in this scenario? If it's the same goblin which could fairly be represented using the standard goblin stat block, then we know for a fact that it can withstand the impact of at least one arrow. If you used the minion stat block, then that would no longer be the case. So which is the truth? Can it withstand an impact carrying X amount of force, or can it not?
I don't buy it. 'hit' means it had its effect. If hit means something different at different levels, then your idea of "things always mean the same in the fiction" is simply absurd. Of course the arrow just bounces off (or doesn't even hit) the higher level PC, but that is exactly what hit points is doing for you, changing the fiction.
If "hit" doesn't mean "hit", then something has gone severely wrong with your game. If a "hit" is only a "hit" against someone with few HP left, but is actually a "near miss that required energy expenditure" against an enemy with many HP, then that's an inconsistent narration of the process. I think we're in agreement, that 4E assumes this inconsistency.

Our only disagreement, is that earlier editions didn't necessarily assume that inconsistency. You could play earlier editions, and say that a "hit" was always a "hit". I know for a fact that you could do so, because I did, and so did everyone I'd ever played with. I don't know anyone who was able to play that way in 4E.
 

Put an ogre and a goblin in the same room. How much force does it take to KO the ogre? Is it more or less than the amount of force carried by a single arrow? How much force to KO the goblin? It should take less force to KO the goblin than it does to KO the ogre, right?

That's what I mean by consistency. In every earlier edition, we knew how hard you would have to hit the ogre in order to make it stop moving, and we knew the same in regards to the goblin. It was a consistent HP value. One hit from an arrow would kill a goblin, but not an ogre.
Actually, this is nonsense. In my old 2e campaign I had a setup where the party would almost immediately run into a Hill Giant. How many hit points did this Hill Giant have? 9! Perfectly legal Hill Giant right out of the MM. It was pretty amusing, because here's this monstrous and terrifying creature, but on average a fighter with a bastard sword (2-16 damage vs large IIRC) will kill it in 1-2 blows, tops. Now, the giant was still DANGEROUS, but exactly where is the consistency of fiction? There are Hobgoblins with 9 hit points, also perfectly legal. Now, they do a BIT less damage than even this gimpy Hill Giant, but they're still fairly dangerous (admittedly, being an 8HD creature gives the giant a bit of an edge).

Now, in 4e, a 16th level minion STILL has level 16 defenses. The goblin is level 1. Truth is, the 16th level minion ogre would still probably defeat several level 1 goblins. I'd note that an AD&D Ogre might well have as few as 5 hit points, basically not much different from the 16th level minion.

I just don't see these games as being very far apart at all.

I guess the real question is, why do you believe the goblin should be represented as a minion in this scenario? If it's the same goblin which could fairly be represented using the standard goblin stat block, then we know for a fact that it can withstand the impact of at least one arrow. If you used the minion stat block, then that would no longer be the case. So which is the truth? Can it withstand an impact carrying X amount of force, or can it not?

OK, so, first of all, a level 16 PC's arrow is sure to insta-gank even a non-minion level 1 goblin, so representing it as a minion is simply a convenience in that sense. Secondly, I would probably make it a higher level minion, and then it would represent a strong, but still trivially weaker, goblin (say a level 16 minion). Either way it will die from one arrow. There could be a few corner cases between the minion and the non-minion where the non-minion is 'more durable' but to a fairly trivial degree.

If "hit" doesn't mean "hit", then something has gone severely wrong with your game. If a "hit" is only a "hit" against someone with few HP left, but is actually a "near miss that required energy expenditure" against an enemy with many HP, then that's an inconsistent narration of the process. I think we're in agreement, that 4E assumes this inconsistency.

Our only disagreement, is that earlier editions didn't necessarily assume that inconsistency. You could play earlier editions, and say that a "hit" was always a "hit". I know for a fact that you could do so, because I did, and so did everyone I'd ever played with. I don't know anyone who was able to play that way in 4E.

I think that, if you look at it objectively, earlier editions DID, and Gygax agrees with me!
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
The 4e minions rule was one of the better rules to come out of 4e and, in my opinion, is worth importing into 5e. I'm also thinking of using elite minions, minions that otherwise follow the rules of minions but it takes two hits to kill them.

I'm also thinking of using the bloodied condition to introduce effects. Just think of the 4e dragon that becomes bloodied and then immediately recharges and uses its breath weapon. Have that happen once and watch the players worry the second time they run into a dragon.
 

The 4e minions rule was one of the better rules to come out of 4e and, in my opinion, is worth importing into 5e. I'm also thinking of using elite minions, minions that otherwise follow the rules of minions but it takes two hits to kill them.

I'm also thinking of using the bloodied condition to introduce effects. Just think of the 4e dragon that becomes bloodied and then immediately recharges and uses its breath weapon. Have that happen once and watch the players worry the second time they run into a dragon.

Add in powers that don't refer to spells and you've got a lot of what 4e monsters have, except 5e monsters are still lacking really good design in my book. Partly a problem with 5e's combat system...

Anyway, you can do a few different minion variants. Giving them a higher than 1 point kill threshold is not bad, say 1 point plus 3/5 levels rounded down, roughly. It tends to make it possible for higher level ones to survive the very most casual types of auto damage, but doesn't really make them tough enough to take a direct hit.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Actually, this is nonsense. In my old 2e campaign I had a setup where the party would almost immediately run into a Hill Giant. How many hit points did this Hill Giant have? 9! Perfectly legal Hill Giant right out of the MM. It was pretty amusing, because here's this monstrous and terrifying creature, but on average a fighter with a bastard sword (2-16 damage vs large IIRC) will kill it in 1-2 blows, tops. Now, the giant was still DANGEROUS, but exactly where is the consistency of fiction? There are Hobgoblins with 9 hit points, also perfectly legal. Now, they do a BIT less damage than even this gimpy Hill Giant, but they're still fairly dangerous (admittedly, being an 8HD creature gives the giant a bit of an edge).

Now, in 4e, a 16th level minion STILL has level 16 defenses. The goblin is level 1. Truth is, the 16th level minion ogre would still probably defeat several level 1 goblins. I'd note that an AD&D Ogre might well have as few as 5 hit points, basically not much different from the 16th level minion.

I just don't see these games as being very far apart at all.



OK, so, first of all, a level 16 PC's arrow is sure to insta-gank even a non-minion level 1 goblin, so representing it as a minion is simply a convenience in that sense. Secondly, I would probably make it a higher level minion, and then it would represent a strong, but still trivially weaker, goblin (say a level 16 minion). Either way it will die from one arrow. There could be a few corner cases between the minion and the non-minion where the non-minion is 'more durable' but to a fairly trivial degree.



I think that, if you look at it objectively, earlier editions DID, and Gygax agrees with me!

The odds of a hill giant having 9 hp legitimately in 1E are very remote. I assume you assigned the hp rather than rolled.

That's a very very weak hill giant. Sure the occasional one like that is understandable but the minion rules are silly and gamist because it implies there are alot of them like that.

World's squishiest giant sure why not if it's a one off or rare.

Dragon breath weapon recharging when bloodied is silly in 5E. It worked in 4E because Dragon damage is stupidly low. At that point you would have to rewrite the monster.

If you're doing that you might as well rewrite the 5E classes and clone 4E. Same thing if you do a 5E Warlord with at will attack granting, time to rewrite the rogue at that point. Then you need to redo the other damage dealing classes etc.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Add in powers that don't refer to spells and you've got a lot of what 4e monsters have, except 5e monsters are still lacking really good design in my book. Partly a problem with 5e's combat system...

Anyway, you can do a few different minion variants. Giving them a higher than 1 point kill threshold is not bad, say 1 point plus 3/5 levels rounded down, roughly. It tends to make it possible for higher level ones to survive the very most casual types of auto damage, but doesn't really make them tough enough to take a direct hit.
The key thing 4e minions had that 5e very-low-level monsters lack is the ability to survive /making/ a save. ;) But for that 5e BA delivers: a much-lower-level monster can still hit occasional, the damage it does may be trivial, and your minimum damage may well kill it when you do hit - so easy to deal with, but its inclusion isn't meaningless.

In 4e, minions had a specific rule: a missed attack never damages a minion, since all AEs were still attacks (saves were a duration mechanic), fireballing a bunch of minions didn't auto-kill them, some of them would remain to do a little damage or otherwise get in the way and show themselves 'relevant' in the combat. A similar rule for 5e might be applied generally: If you're making a save for 1/2 damage vs damage that's more than double your max hps, you instead take 1/2 your max hp if you save successfully.

Dragon breath weapon recharging when bloodied is silly in 5E.
Only in that there's no bloodied condition. Aside from that, pacing the use of the breathweapon is a goodish idea - whether that's by recharging at a hp threshold, on a roll, or a crit, or after a cooldown, or whatever - a dragon that could just 'nova' and breath on you three times in a row could be problematic. ;)

Same thing if you do a 5E Warlord with at will attack granting, time to rewrite the rogue at that point. Then you need to redo the other damage dealing classes etc.
Hardly. The 5e rogue is, if anything, less of a potential issue if systematically granted attacks than the Essentials 'Thief' was. The biggest challenge to making a 5e Warlord would be in powering it /up/ enough from the 4e version to be a viable alternative to a Paladin (let alone a full caster).

...but, kludging 5e isn't really the point of the thread...


The odds of a hill giant having 9 hp legitimately in 1E are very remote. I assume you assigned the hp rather than rolled.
That's a very very weak hill giant. Sure the occasional one like that is understandable but the minion rules are silly and gamist because it implies there are alot of them like that.
They really don't. Monster 'secondary' roles were a neat little innovation. They let a monster be level-appropriate while putting up enough of a fight to take a whole party on (Solo) or stand out from the crows (Elite). Doing that in every other edition is problematic, you dial up the level/HD on a monster that much and it's other attributes - attack/damage, saves, AC, etc - outpace the party and resolving the combat becomes tedious, at best (or simply runs into TPK territory).

Minions - or mooks or popcorn, or whatever they were called in the games that first introduced the idea a decade or so before 4e - are not representing people made of glass, they're a game mechanic that represents how bad-ass the heroes are, and a nod to the fact that using the same level of granularity overandoverandoverandoveragainandagain in a game gets boring.

Killing that first orc can be exciting, killing your 998th orc, not s'much (killing your 1000th, sure, for some reason round numbers excite people), yet heroes mow through orcs. Playing through that in hideous detail is a pain, especially if the orcs can't hit back. In 1e, the 'solution' (which didn't work on orcs, so I shoulda said 'goblins,' but I feel I'm committed at this point) was to give fighters 1 attack/level vs less-than-one-HD monsters, and to take the average on large groups of contemptible foes (so 20 orcs who hit on a natural 20 attack you, you take 1 hit, that kinda thing). In 3.x the solution was WWA and Great Cleave and giving orcs greataxes. In 5e it's BA & hp inflation. Those 'solutions' /still/ had you roll hit & damage vs every orc - and still had orcs auto-erased by AEs, even if they made their save for 1/2 damage, meaning the fighter looking badass taking out large group of orcs took a lot of boring rolling to resolve, while for the MU it was resolved in one damage roll - yep, the fireball did more than double the toughest orcs' max hps, they're all dead, no need to roll forty saves.

In 4e it was minions, and you at least didn't have to roll damage, and a few of those little minions could survive AEs, to get a lick or two in.

The 'same monster' idea that hits pseudo-simulation so hard is not the issue it appears to be, either. A "1-hp Giant" just represents the chance that giant has against a high-level party - not much of one, but it can be a threat for a round or two. Against a much lower-level party the same giant could be statted out as a Standard or even a Solo... and it could be held at the same exp value, too, if you want to be pedantic/exacting about it being the /same/ monster.
 
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The odds of a hill giant having 9 hp legitimately in 1E are very remote. I assume you assigned the hp rather than rolled.
'legitimately'? Show me the place where AD&D says DMs have to roll hit dice. AD&D allows for a wide range of values for the hit points of creatures, it is that simple.

That's a very very weak hill giant. Sure the occasional one like that is understandable but the minion rules are silly and gamist because it implies there are alot of them like that.

World's squishiest giant sure why not if it's a one off or rare.
The minion rules imply nothing. If you want a lot of them, then you have them. But again, these aren't 'weak monsters', they are simply RELATIVELY weak compared to the party, and that weakness is being expressed in terms of hit points instead of AC or other defenses, etc. Given that D&D explicitly describes hit points as abstract this is a perfectly viable and sensible alternative. I have simply proven that a similar technique is available to DMs starting with OD&D!

Dragon breath weapon recharging when bloodied is silly in 5E. It worked in 4E because Dragon damage is stupidly low. At that point you would have to rewrite the monster.

If you're doing that you might as well rewrite the 5E classes and clone 4E. Same thing if you do a 5E Warlord with at will attack granting, time to rewrite the rogue at that point. Then you need to redo the other damage dealing classes etc.

humbug.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It's funny how the subject has turned to hps.

The second-earliest, second-most-vicious, second-best-justified criticism of primordial D&D was that characters gaining hps through 'experience' made no sense. (Obviously that's second after 'forgetting' spells upon casting being ridiculous.) EGGs exhaustive defense of the system was a useable rationalization if you were willing to suspend disbelief a bit and accept hps (and saving throws - the #3 criticism being the all-or-nothing poison save, OK, or maybe that was #4 after armor making you harder to hit, instead of harder to hurt) as modeling the 'plot armor' that figuratively protected fictional characters. And that tenuous rationalization has stood as the only official explanation of hps used in D&D.


I mean, take the example, above, about the inexperienced warrior taking an arrow to the armored torso and being dropped by the shock/pain of the impact (no wound channel or anything, but kinetic impact), while the more experienced one pushes through the pain and stays conscious. D&D literally cannot simulate that scenario. In D&D, if an arrow doesn't penetrate your armor, it's a miss, it inflicts NO damage. If it does 'hit,' it inflicts /exactly/ the same damage it would have had you not been wearing armor.

EGG's rationalization of hps works with that: armored or unarmored, the inexperienced character takes an arrow to the chest and goes down severely wounded & dying (or just dead, depending on ed & optional rules in place), while the experienced one - warned by his 'sixth sense' or nudged by divine providence or whatever - twists aside and suffers, at most, perhaps, a gash on his arm instead of a penetrating chest wound.

It's a level of abstraction, 'gamism,' and/or verisimilitude-breaking that's comparable to that implied by armor functioning only to turn hits into clean misses, or initiative progressing in turns, or poisoning being an all-or-nothing affair (among many other D&Disms). And, of course, still far more realistic, less abstract, and no more gamist than effing spell slots.

So there is a consistency to D&D hps - it's that they're as unrealistic as all the other sub-systems.
 
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Actually, this is nonsense. In my old 2e campaign I had a setup where the party would almost immediately run into a Hill Giant. How many hit points did this Hill Giant have? 9! Perfectly legal Hill Giant right out of the MM. It was pretty amusing, because here's this monstrous and terrifying creature, but on average a fighter with a bastard sword (2-16 damage vs large IIRC) will kill it in 1-2 blows, tops. Now, the giant was still DANGEROUS, but exactly where is the consistency of fiction?
The consistency is that the Hill Giant has 9hp, whether it's facing a level 1 party or a level 20 party, or a band of hobgoblins. Those 9ph represent an objective fact about that creature, which is that it can survive an impact of a given quantifiable force, and falls to anything greater than that.

Of course, 9hp is significantly on the low side for a hill giant, but the rules tell us that these do exist. This one is just significantly less tough than its brethren. It probably doesn't get in a lot of fights. Likewise, it's possible for a goblin chieftain to have more than 9hp. It's possible for the world's toughest goblin to be tougher than the world's weakest giant. But in every case, that HP total still represents its ability to withstand an impact of given force.

OK, so, first of all, a level 16 PC's arrow is sure to insta-gank even a non-minion level 1 goblin, so representing it as a minion is simply a convenience in that sense. Secondly, I would probably make it a higher level minion, and then it would represent a strong, but still trivially weaker, goblin (say a level 16 minion). Either way it will die from one arrow. There could be a few corner cases between the minion and the non-minion where the non-minion is 'more durable' but to a fairly trivial degree.
You are factually incorrect on this point. I played at level 16, and nothing was going down from one hit, unless it was a minion. A level 1 (non-minion) goblin has between 25 and 29 HP. As a level 16 character, my at-will arrows still only deal 1d8+10 (or so). Even my encounter powers could fail to break 25, if I rolled low.

I think that, if you look at it objectively, earlier editions DID, and Gygax agrees with me!
When he was in charge, he may have made that suggestion, but the rules didn't force it on anyone. You could still play it without the inconsistency, if you wanted to; and many people chose to. Fourth Edition was unique because they removed that possibility.
 

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