My first Homebrew attempt to fix the elven dex fighter/rapier and bow all too frequent build in my campaign: I need some advice!

Hi everybody,

as I explained in a previous thread, I’ve got some problems with Dex being the most influent and important stat in D&D 5 ed, and with the too often chosen, at least in my party, build “dex based fighter/rapier, as the only “d8 damage” finesse weapon, and bow”.

I’ve got some problems with this build because my most tactical – optimizer – min-max players tend to choose it not for flavour or narrative reasons, but because it’s the most convenient one, and I don’t like it, because I think that, for many aspects of the game, they are right.

So, here’s how I’m thinking of changing the rules (as little as possibile, since I like playing games using RAW) of D&D 5th ed. to face this “bug” in my campaign:

1. For the game and campaign being, I’m not changing anything. We’re all having fun, two players have built their characters (elven dex based fighters with rapier and bows) using the official rules of the game, since I told them that I wanted to use the rules as written: it would seem unfair to me towards them changing the rules after the beginning of the game, mainly since the other players aren’t complaining about this.
2. For the future, I’m thinking of using this:
   1. Finesse weapons: you can add your Dexterity or your Strength modifier to the “to hit” roll, but, by default, you add your Strength modifier to the damage dealt.
   2. If you want to add your Dexterity modifier to damage dealt, you have to take the “Agile Fighter” (or would “Finesse Fighter” be a better name?) Feat (see below)

Agile Fighter (or Finesse Fighter) Feat

When you wield a Finesse Weapon you can add your Dexterity Modifier to your to hit roll and to the damage you deal with a successful attack.

If the DM allows it, players who want to play a demi-human race, particularly elves, halflings, gnomes, or half elves, and playing right from the 1st level a full fledged dex based fighter, could replace one of their racial feature (namely the high elven “bonus cantrip”, the wood elven “mask of the wild”, and so on) with this feat.

What do you think? Would these changes alter the balance of the game in a significant way?

Would it be too much adding also “you can raise your Dexteritiy score by 1” to the Agile Fighter Feat?

I’d really appreciate receiving your feedback, advice, impressions and suggestions!
Many thanks!

I would not add a Dex increase to your Agile Fighter feat.

Basically utilize other stats more often.

Enforce encumberance.
Obstacles that require lifting, pushing or holding things back.
Include the need to remember specific things or Lore.
Endurance based trials.
Traps that need to be figured out and require multiple people.
Traps that require other saves.
Provide weak minions in combat to use help action.
Use spells other than dex save.
Have non violent encounters where knowledge and communication win over dex.
Cramped fighting spaces where you rule that dex does not help.
The list goes on.

I do not think one thing in particular will help but a combined and concerted to use the other stats is what stopped my players from only worrying about dex.

Monsters that need magical weapons to damage. What's that, you haven't got a magic rapier?

But you could simply give your players more direction. You don"t have to acept any character your player bring to the table, especially if they show a lack of imagination or are fixated on a rules fallacy. "This adventure starts out when the members of a dwarven merchent company are hired to ship a magic item..."

Agile Fighter just undid almost all the work you did afaict.
The finesse build is now doing +Str+Dex to hit, and +Str+Dex to damage.
That's going to be taken over every Fighter build.

So if your goal is to lower the dependency on Dex, you kinda failed.
If your goal was to raise Str, you succeeded.
If your goal was to stop everyone and their mother using a rapier, you failed.

But the middle goal is a worthwhile one.

The Agile Fighter feat shouldn't be a thing. That's just overpowered. And defeats the purpose as noted above.

I would just remove +DEX to any and all weapon damage, and make STR the ONLY attribute to ever apply a modifier to weapon damage. That means finesse weapons AND ranged weapons, and that includes a negative STR modifier. Kill all 8 STR archers.

Also, crossbows shouldn't add any ability modifier to damage, period. Make a new weapon property called "mechanical" that prevents ability modifier to damage. And as small compensation, increase damage dice for all crossbows by one size.

Gladius Legis said:

Also, crossbows shouldn't add any ability modifier to damage, period. Make a new weapon property called "mechanical" that prevents ability modifier to damage. And as small compensation, increase damage dice for all crossbows by one size.

Click to expand...

Reminds me of one of the things I tinkered with, where bows had just ability modifiers but average dice, crossbows had static modifiers and small dice, and guns had big dice, but negative modifiers.

I have many of the same issues you do! Here are some of the ways I've dealt with it:

Rapiers: I make them do d8 damage only when the other hand is free; d6 if it isn't. You could also make them harder to come by, and their magical counterparts even more so.

Initiative: You could just use a different stat, like INT. Or a different system. I use a variant of Mearl's Greyhawk initiative.

For damage: I actually ended up just letting this one go. I found with the inclusion of feats and class abilities, DEX for damage wasn't such a big deal anymore, as a lot more damage was coming from those other sources.

Encumbrance. Lots of variant rules on limiting how much you can carry that makes STR important. For example, I let players carry 1 + STR bonus (if positive) large item(s) and 6 + STR + CON bonus medium items (like potions). Small items I ignore.

Heavy Armor: I let heavy armor reduce damage by one every time the character takes damage. The Heavy Armory feat lets you add proficiency bonus to that for even more protection.

Min/Max stats: I actually use cards to generate stats. A deck of two 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9s. I randomly assign one card to each stat, then the player distributes the last six to any stat they want. Generates slightly random, fair, playable characters.

Finally: Just because DEX characters do okay in combat doesn't mean they're the best at everything. Heavy doors, tough climbs, and stuck treasure are just some of the ways to let STR builds shine!

Good luck!

Strider1973 said:

Agile Fighter (or Finesse Fighter) Feat

When you wield a Finesse Weapon you can add your Dexterity Modifier to your to hit roll and to the damage you deal with a successful attack.

Click to expand...

To clarify, was this feat intended to allow a character to use their Dexterity mod for damage instead of their Strength mod, or as well as?

Strider1973 said:

Hi everybody,

as I explained in a previous thread, I’ve got some problems with Dex being the most influent and important stat in D&D 5 ed, and with the too often chosen, at least in my party, build “dex based fighter/rapier, as the only “d8 damage” finesse weapon, and bow”.

I’ve got some problems with this build because my most tactical – optimizer – min-max players tend to choose it not for flavour or narrative reasons, but because it’s the most convenient one, and I don’t like it, because I think that, for many aspects of the game, they are right.

So, here’s how I’m thinking of changing the rules (as little as possibile, since I like playing games using RAW) of D&D 5th ed. to face this “bug” in my campaign:

1. For the game and campaign being, I’m not changing anything. We’re all having fun, two players have built their characters (elven dex based fighters with rapier and bows) using the official rules of the game, since I told them that I wanted to use the rules as written: it would seem unfair to me towards them changing the rules after the beginning of the game, mainly since the other players aren’t complaining about this.
2. For the future, I’m thinking of using this:
   1. Finesse weapons: you can add your Dexterity or your Strength modifier to the “to hit” roll, but, by default, you add your Strength modifier to the damage dealt.
   2. If you want to add your Dexterity modifier to damage dealt, you have to take the “Agile Fighter” (or would “Finesse Fighter” be a better name?) Feat (see below)

Agile Fighter (or Finesse Fighter) Feat

When you wield a Finesse Weapon you can add your Dexterity Modifier to your to hit roll and to the damage you deal with a successful attack.

If the DM allows it, players who want to play a demi-human race, particularly elves, halflings, gnomes, or half elves, and playing right from the 1st level a full fledged dex based fighter, could replace one of their racial feature (namely the high elven “bonus cantrip”, the wood elven “mask of the wild”, and so on) with this feat.

What do you think? Would these changes alter the balance of the game in a significant way?

Would it be too much adding also “you can raise your Dexteritiy score by 1” to the Agile Fighter Feat?

I’d really appreciate receiving your feedback, advice, impressions and suggestions!
Many thanks!

Click to expand...

If the result of this is nobody choosing the dex rapier combo and the optimizes choosing another combo cuz it's the new "best" then will you also be changing the rules again to stop that combo?

In my experience, players who make choices for optimization only reasons tend to have no problem finding another "best" whenever rules change. They never come down on " hey these are perfectly balanced, I can choose either of them."

In my experience with minmaxers, tweaking the rules to "prevent them" from all taking this one "best thing" is effectively banning it, cuz once you get it to second best, its abandoned completely- so it's easier to just ban rapier and longbow if that's your scapegoat.

As such, rules changes to specifically prevent them from settling on a "best combo" fail to do anything other than move the "best" to another combo.

So, if after your rules change your minmaxer pair wind up both with great sword, strength GWM thumpers, are you gonna house rule that?

If you want to make them not take whatever combo they want, you need rules to make that not happen.
.
"Only one party member can use a given weapon" seems more on target.
But you could also target it more directly by saying "only 1 character can have any given ability score" so you wont end up with too many at say high dex ranges.

Imo the answer to getting a diverse spread of capabilities valued by and chosen by the groups is in the challenges they meet. If you show them ranged bow fire is the key over and over, you will see them migrate towards dex builds. If you show them the heavy hitting superior damage of head to head melee is, you will see that. If you show them a lot more diverse and that each is needed, you will see the diversity you apparently need.

Balance (and the imagined diversity you hope springs from it) is not gonna spring out of requiring a feat to get back to what RAW is now. Its gonna come outta them being in cases where everybody playing that one song isnt gonna cut it and where all the instruments in the orchestra are needed.