Ranged Options for All Classes

Oofta said:

So ... if I have a setup where dragons are attacking, I should always run the dragons stupid? Lower the challenge rating because I know my melee PCs are going to be ineffective?

I run NPCs and monsters the best I can given their intelligence and goals. A dragon will almost never land to go toe-to-toe (there are exceptions to all rules of course). Why should they lower themselves to the level of earth bound worms? These are intelligent, evil opponents, many of whom have been around for centuries. They fight dirty. Breath fire, pick up boulders and drop them on the PCs, swoop down and grab the pesky ranged guy and drop them from half a mile up (being careful not to get in melee range). That's how dragons fight.

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Yunru said:

Sure, but unless they just ninja out of the void, there should be some warning signs.

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Oofta said:

First of all, I don't agree. Especially when dealing with ancient dragons. Clouds of smoke or mist are going to limit visibility. In the mountains they're going to spy on the group from far above and wait until the group is in a narrow pass before appearing suddenly from over a cliff.

But even if it's an open plane with no cover, it doesn't matter. Yes the melee types will have plenty of time to contemplate their demise, but it doesn't change the fact that they may will be completely useless in the upcoming fight. They're going to be bored and ineffective, readying an attack every round to throw their one javelin per round if the dragon comes within 40 ft. I guess it does give them time to pull out the pom poms and figure out their cheer routine.

Call it a pet peeve but I hate having to nerf the bad guy so the PCs have a chance. Especially when there are simple options to make minor tweaks to the rules so everyone can participate.

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Saelorn said:

Whether or not the DM should use fiat powers to contrive opportunities for the party is another topic entirely. For now, let it suffice to say that eigen-plots are controversial, and just because a DM can work around a problem does not mean the problem isn't real.

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Saelorn said:

Remember, the scenario at-hand is a BBEG who can fly. Role-playing that character to the best of their ability is the primary job of the DM. Good ideas should usually work, whether those ideas come from the PCs or an NPC. Arbitrarily negating the villain's advantage of flight is no more justified than arbitrarily negating the PC's advantage of flight, when the tables are turned.

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Saelorn said:

The game is 5E. The party is never in any danger. The party, as a whole, will still overcome the villain, regardless of whether or not the barbarian participates.

The only question is whether this is a good time to meta-game, on the grounds that one of the players will be bored to death. As a general rule, meta-gaming should be avoided. A game which forces you into that position is a bad game.

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Yunru said:

You mean the ancient dragons that have obvious and notable lair effects?

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Saelorn said:

Are we still pretending that the game is balanced?

If nobody can safely dump Dexterity - not even a high-Strength fighter with heavy armor - then that points to a serious issue with stat balance. After all, plenty of people can get away with dumping Strength, Int, Wisdom, or Charisma. Why should everyone in the world need above-average Dexterity in order to be minimally competent? (And yes, this argument is borrowed from Constitution, which everyone already agrees is a broken stat.)

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Oofta said:

Maybe. Or maybe it's not anywhere near their lair. Or maybe it's just a dragon that's survived being hunted by hundreds of pesky adventurers over a century or two that's recently been pushed out of it's lair. Maybe the dragon has a few levels of sorcerer or wizard/illusionist. But even if it's near their lair, so what? Unless you have knowledge of what it means and a way to deal with it, it doesn't matter.

Options for significantly contributing to a fight with an intelligent flying opponent that has reasonable ranged attacks (greater than 40 ft) are slim and none for a strength based character unless they are enabled by someone else. Even then choices are limited.

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DM Dave1 said:

Not saying the DM should contrive anything, but what the DM should not do is set up a dead-end situation where there is only one rigid course of action available to the players. The players should bring their collective creativity to the table - and that often surprises a DM. Learn to say "yes and" when the players come up with something exciting.



Agreed. Not sure if I somehow implied otherwise.



Why is the player bored? Are we saying there is absolutely NOTHING a strength based character can do in some situations? Truly nothing at all? That does sound boring. But it doesn't sound like a real problem that has no possible solution, IME. The game seems flexible enough that all players have something their character can be doing at any given time if they want to be imaginative and are sometimes ok with an action that is not "swing the axe".

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DM Dave1 said:

Why is the player bored? Are we saying there is absolutely NOTHING a strength based character can do in some situations? Truly nothing at all? That does sound boring. But it doesn't sound like a real problem that has no possible solution, IME. The game seems flexible enough that all players have something their character can be doing at any given time if they want to be imaginative and are sometimes ok with an action that is not "swing the axe".

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Yunru said:

This sounds like you're argueing for bad DMing.

Also there is something they can do:ready attacks.

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