Pages From The Upcoming Nautical D&D Book!

Why would it be wrong of you to care?

Well, your caring means that you are actively working against anyone else who might want to see a different take on an older idea. Your caring about canon stifles creativity and creates a hostile environment among fans who don't feel that a single decision point (do we place this module in this or that setting) forty years ago should be forever binding.

IOW, your Tomb of Horrors would not spontaneously combust if they did "invalidate" it with a mega dungeon in Chult. You could still run it, read it and enjoy it. And, I get the bonus of being able to enjoy a new take on an old idea.

I guess my basic point is, new ideas don't invalidate old ones.

Hussar said:

Why would it be wrong of you to care?

Well, your caring means that you are actively working against anyone else who might want to see a different take on an older idea. Your caring about canon stifles creativity and creates a hostile environment among fans who don't feel that a single decision point (do we place this module in this or that setting) forty years ago should be forever binding.

IOW, your Tomb of Horrors would not spontaneously combust if they did "invalidate" it with a mega dungeon in Chult. You could still run it, read it and enjoy it. And, I get the bonus of being able to enjoy a new take on an old idea.

I guess my basic point is, new ideas don't invalidate old ones.

Click to expand...

Unless they do.

So far, WotC has been good about including "In Other Worlds" in their adventures, for the very real possibility someone isn't running FR but wants to run the adventure. PotA's other worlds describes placing the adventure in and around Hommlet, the site of the previous 2 Elemental Evil adventures (t1-4 as well as 3e's Return to). None yet have "invalidated" similar adventures of older editions. Thinking this one will "invalidate" the old Saltmarsh adventures is possibly foolish, but you never know.

I understand Sword of Spirit's feelings, though. His friend's negativity towards the effective "removal" of the Star Wars EU, is similar to how I felt about Marvel's "Ultimate" line of comics, as well as DC's "New 52". When I first heard about PotA, them setting it within FR had me thinking they were stupid because the more fitting setting (in my mind) would have been Greyhawk due to the already established lore of Elemental Evil around Hommlet. It made me happy that they included the part about setting it within Greyhawk in Hommlet, but making everything Forgotten Realms with a sidebar saying how to include it in other worlds, to me is dumb. Having Elemental Evil within Faerun just feels hamfisted "square peg in round hole". WotC has access to many settings. Certain adventures make more sense in certain settings. Write it for the setting it makes sense for, and then include the sidebar of fitting it into other worlds.

oreofox said:

Unless they do.

So far, WotC has been good about including "In Other Worlds" in their adventures, for the very real possibility someone isn't running FR but wants to run the adventure. PotA's other worlds describes placing the adventure in and around Hommlet, the site of the previous 2 Elemental Evil adventures (t1-4 as well as 3e's Return to). None yet have "invalidated" similar adventures of older editions. Thinking this one will "invalidate" the old Saltmarsh adventures is possibly foolish, but you never know.

I understand Sword of Spirit's feelings, though. His friend's negativity towards the effective "removal" of the Star Wars EU, is similar to how I felt about Marvel's "Ultimate" line of comics, as well as DC's "New 52". When I first heard about PotA, them setting it within FR had me thinking they were stupid because the more fitting setting (in my mind) would have been Greyhawk due to the already established lore of Elemental Evil around Hommlet. It made me happy that they included the part about setting it within Greyhawk in Hommlet, but making everything Forgotten Realms with a sidebar saying how to include it in other worlds, to me is dumb. Having Elemental Evil within Faerun just feels hamfisted "square peg in round hole". WotC has access to many settings. Certain adventures make more sense in certain settings. Write it for the setting it makes sense for, and then include the sidebar of fitting it into other worlds.

Click to expand...

The Elemental Princes of Evil have been a canon part of the Forgotten Realms since the 1e Gray Box, if I'm not mistaken. They were definitely canon since early 2e at the very latest. That round hole has had plenty of time to be re-shaped to square.

(That's not to say that Saltmarsh shouldn't be stated to be canonically in Greyhawk if this is a direct port of the U series - it definitely should, as it is 100% canonically in Keoland and there is no place called Saltmarsh known in FR. It's only to say something to feature the Elemental Princes of Evil in the Forgotten Realms in 5e shouldn't be considered something novel or unprecedented.)

Sounds to me that it all comes down to personal ego. Everyone feels like they need to be part of the "real" fan group. And when the "real" fan group's product changes (entirely decided by those who control the product of the fandom and not the fans themselves)... the fans who are left behind feel betrayed. Because they are no longer the "real" fans of the "real" product.

If you were a fan of the Star Wars Expanded Universe (IE the "canon"), at one point you were a part of the "real" Star Wars fans because you were a fan of the "Star Wars canon" (the mythical identity of what the "real Star Wars product" was.) But as soon as the people in charge of Star Wars changed the canon, if you didn't forsake the EU and immediately join up with those fans who focused on all the new stuff, then you didn't follow the new "Star Wars canon", and thus couldn't be considered a "real" fan of Star Wars anymore.

Here's the problem though... the only person who cares whether you are a fan of the "new canon" or got left behind when the product changed... is *you*. Nobody else cares. You've created this idea in your own head that there is this mythical group of "true fans" that has you as a member because you enjoy the "canon" of the product. As though this group actually exists (which it doesn't), and that being a "true fan" grants you some privilege (which it doesn't).

It is a group and an idea purely created of your own ego, which you have done to make yourself feel good about caring so much about this thing. There is genuine fear in all of us that our enjoyment or obsession about this particular thing might be a little... much... so by creating this concept of "true fans", we can join a larger group in our own heads that make our obsession a little less odd because we are not alone. But then, when our "group" gets destroyed out from under us and we have such a visceral reaction to it... we realize its because we truly *are* alone. We alone like whatever it is we like in the way we like it.

And that's been true all along. No one else likes what we like in the manner we like it. Despite our best attempts to deny that is true and create a "group" to belong to. So when someone asks "Why does the canon of the Forgotten Realms mean so much to you, when it is obvious that it doesn't mean anything to the people in charge of it?", you have no choice but to fictionalize that it matters so that you don't feel alone in your desires and enjoyment of it.

Our egos can't stand the thought that what we love is not actually universal and that we are truly alone in how we love it. And our egos usually can't handle that.

oreofox said:

Unless they do.

So far, WotC has been good about including "In Other Worlds" in their adventures, for the very real possibility someone isn't running FR but wants to run the adventure. PotA's other worlds describes placing the adventure in and around Hommlet, the site of the previous 2 Elemental Evil adventures (t1-4 as well as 3e's Return to). None yet have "invalidated" similar adventures of older editions. Thinking this one will "invalidate" the old Saltmarsh adventures is possibly foolish, but you never know.

I understand Sword of Spirit's feelings, though. His friend's negativity towards the effective "removal" of the Star Wars EU, is similar to how I felt about Marvel's "Ultimate" line of comics, as well as DC's "New 52". When I first heard about PotA, them setting it within FR had me thinking they were stupid because the more fitting setting (in my mind) would have been Greyhawk due to the already established lore of Elemental Evil around Hommlet. It made me happy that they included the part about setting it within Greyhawk in Hommlet, but making everything Forgotten Realms with a sidebar saying how to include it in other worlds, to me is dumb. Having Elemental Evil within Faerun just feels hamfisted "square peg in round hole". WotC has access to many settings. Certain adventures make more sense in certain settings. Write it for the setting it makes sense for, and then include the sidebar of fitting it into other worlds.

Click to expand...

You're missing my point though.

Did someone's T1-4 spontaneously combust because PotA came out? Is there some reason you couldn't run that original module anymore? No, of course not. Nothing actually changed for that person. Not a single thing. They are just as able to run the original T1-4 today as they were years ago.

But, now, people have a choice. They can run the original T1-4 set in Greyhawk, or they can run PotA set in Forgotten Realms. Choice is good. It's a new take on an idea.

Good grief, I've seen Romeo and Juliet performed as street theater using 1950's hot rods instead of swords. That's about as far from "canon" as you can get. But what I didn't see was a bunch of Shakespeare fans jumping up and down because the canon was changed. Some liked the show, some didn't. But that was based on the production, not on some self invented image of what Shakespeare "should be".

If they rewrite the Slave Lords modules and place them in Forgotten Realms, as an example, who cares? Why should that bother anyone. If you insist that the Slave Lord modules MUST be in Greyhawk, run the original modules. Why does it hurt you so much that I get what I want?

Hussar said:

...

Good grief, I've seen Romeo and Juliet performed as street theater using 1950's hot rods instead of swords. That's about as far from "canon" as you can get. But what I didn't see was a bunch of Shakespeare fans jumping up and down because the canon was changed. Some liked the show, some didn't. But that was based on the production, not on some self invented image of what Shakespeare "should be".

If they rewrite the Slave Lords modules and place them in Forgotten Realms, as an example, who cares? Why should that bother anyone. If you insist that the Slave Lord modules MUST be in Greyhawk, run the original modules. Why does it hurt you so much that I get what I want?

Click to expand...

I suppose the big difference is that no one owns Romeo and Juliet. The performance of a 1950s hot rod version of a Shakespearean work does not in any way prevent another troupe from performing it in a way that is more faithful to the original work. The refusal of WotC to open the Greyhawk setting on the DMs Guild, however, means that even as they take the Elemental Evil story and twist it to fit the Forgotten Realms, and even as they smush Tomb of Horrors together with the Forbidden City and relocate that, too, to the Forgotten Realms, it is expressly forbidden for anyone to publish an update that adds some content to one of these classic modules or adventure paths and update the encounters and whatnot to the current edition. Mind you, you can absolutely publish your adaptation and enhancement to a classic Greyhawk adventure on the DMs Guild, as long as you set the thing in the Forgotten Realms (or Eberron, or some Magic the Gathering setting--yes, MtG is DMsG legal while the original published D&D setting is not!)

I really don't mind that they write all the new stuff for the Forgotten Realms by default, I'm happy for the kitchen sink to get all the scraps. I do, however, object to the fact that other settings (specifically Oerth and Athas) remain locked off from 3rd party work.

epithet said:

I suppose the big difference is that no one owns Romeo and Juliet. The performance of a 1950s hot rod version of a Shakespearean work does not in any way prevent another troupe from performing it in a way that is more faithful to the original work. The refusal of WotC to open the Greyhawk setting on the DMs Guild, however, means that even as they take the Elemental Evil story and twist it to fit the Forgotten Realms, and even as they smush Tomb of Horrors together with the Forbidden City and relocate that, too, to the Forgotten Realms, it is expressly forbidden for anyone to publish an update that adds some content to one of these classic modules or adventure paths and update the encounters and whatnot to the current edition. Mind you, you can absolutely publish your adaptation and enhancement to a classic Greyhawk adventure on the DMs Guild, as long as you set the thing in the Forgotten Realms (or Eberron, or some Magic the Gathering setting--yes, MtG is DMsG legal while the original published D&D setting is not!)

I really don't mind that they write all the new stuff for the Forgotten Realms by default, I'm happy for the kitchen sink to get all the scraps. I do, however, object to the fact that other settings (specifically Oerth and Athas) remain locked off from 3rd party work.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. That's a somewhat different issue than simply worrying about what WotC does with stuff going forward. And, I can appreciate wanting them to open up Greyhawk. But, again, the realization has to be made why they won't do that. Diluting the brand by having competing products come out just isn't going to happen. Has nothing, really, to do with canon but is pretty much a purely marketing thing.

The same way that we pillaged the Mystara setting for years. So, if you want to make products for, say, Temple of Elemental Evil, it has to be WotC's take on Elemental Evil, which is set in Forgotten Realms. They don't want a bunch of competing products for Greyhawk that don't add any value to the WotC products.

DM's Guild serves one primary purpose - to add value to WotC's product line. Which means most settings are going to remain untouchable.

Hussar said:

Did someone's T1-4 spontaneously combust because PotA came out? Is there some reason you couldn't run that original module anymore? No, of course not. Nothing actually changed for that person. Not a single thing. They are just as able to run the original T1-4 today as they were years ago.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, although many of those modules are rather difficult to get except perhaps in PDF form.

But, now, people have a choice. They can run the original T1-4 set in Greyhawk, or they can run PotA set in Forgotten Realms. Choice is good. It's a new take on an idea. <snip> If they rewrite the Slave Lords modules and place them in Forgotten Realms, as an example, who cares? Why should that bother anyone. If you insist that the Slave Lord modules MUST be in Greyhawk, run the original modules. Why does it hurt you so much that I get what I want?

Click to expand...

Partly it's because the other settings are getting nothing and as @epithet noted, can't even publish on DMs Guild. Fans of that work, correctly, perceive that releases are limited resources. So "choice" to you means "no choice" to other fans. Yes, it's certainly possible to run the older modules. It's a good bit of work to do so and many people don't have decades of experience to be able to understand what's up with 1E---I can do it and I hardly ever run anything "as written" anyway. Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but many of those modules had cool ideas but were often somewhat poorly executed, or are at least somewhat antiquated, and could certainly use a refresh. Finally, the work to convince people to play really old modules can be substantial.

But forget about that. The reaction is one not too difficult to understand pretty well: In general, people don't like feeling neglected or having their preferences ignored or invalidated. In the early days of 5E, WotC seemed desperate to capture "lightning in a bottle" again by rehashing the game's greatest hits. In many respects their own marketing hype set up this situation back when they were going on about "shared experiences". Deciding to do a sequence of "spiritual successors" to classic modules all set in roughly the same spot in the Realms feels too much like Winger covering "War Pigs", "Smoke on the Water", and "Stairway to Heaven". The guys in Winger were hella good players, probably better than any of the original artists, but....

Does opening up Greyhawk, Planescape, Birthright, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, or any of the other myriad other settings for the DMsguild really hurt WotC's sales? Practically everything on that site is 3rd party. 3rd party products still have the stigma lingering from 3rd edition, nearly 20 years ago. Anyone can toss together overpowered garbage and throw it onto the dmsguild. Most DMs won't allow stuff from there, despite having the "approval" of WotC. Despite there being some pretty decent things on there, you still need to wade through a sea of crap. And woe be on the player who must convince their DM to allow something from there.

You say you get choice by them pigeonholing everything into the Forgotten Realms, that putting the Elemental Evil storyline into the Sword Coast is a good thing. What about the numerous others who have no choice? Numerous people on this forum have expressed their dislike of FR. Where's their choice? Putting the Elemental Evil adventure into the Sword Coast, or the Saltmarsh adventure (if this new book is indeed a remake or sequel to the old Saltmarsh adventures) into the Sword Coast, or one of the old Dark Sun or Al'Qadim adventures (remake or sequel) in the Anauroch desert?

Did Curse of Strahd split the player base? Did Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica really split the playerbase (other than their opinion on it's creation over WotC updating an already existing setting)? With WotC's turtle's pace of a release schedule, I highly doubt they would experience the peril that befell TSR. They could release Planescape in an adventure (similar to Ravenloft and CoS), and give their little "In other settings" sidebar. They could do the same with all their other settings. If the adventure's premise is good, the DMs will buy it and adjust things to fit into their preferred setting, despite what the default setting of the adventure may be. And before you say it, yes they already do that. But why are FR DMs given preferrential treatment over an Eberron or Greyhawk DM?

If you look at what is currently being put out about Greyhawk, in the style guides and so on, main difference is sub-genre/story type. FR is a heroic fantasy setting, wheras Greyhawk is Swords and Sorcery, with a side-order of Grimdark.

U1-3 is unquestionably a heroic narrative - evil monsters have an evil plot to destroy the land unless heroes can stop them. Thus it really belongs in FR, despite having originally been set in Greyhawk.

[duck and cover]