D&D 4E 4E Fans Would You Play This?

On Sunday we played Star Wars Saga Edition and hacked it to use 5E levels of numbers.

I really liked how condensed the character sheet was, its 2 pages compared with 5E two or 3 but the pages in star wars are small it about 1.5 bits of paper. For those of you who don't know SWSE more or less uses 4E mechanics/engine but uses a complete different class structure with talent trees and feats. Its kind of like what Pathfinder 2 is going for but with a lot less complexity. The game also has 5 classes. You could probably fold 3 of those classes into 1 (scout, noble, scoundrel) and you could probably remove the Jedi class and make it a prestige class (or paragon tier). SWSE could do with another go around with some form of bounded accuracy IMHO.

With more traditional D&D it has often been mentioned that you could boil it down to 3 classes (Warrior, Expert, Spellcaster). In 4E terms probably Defender/striker, controller, leader. Defender and striker would be the same class how you built it and in how far in each direction you would go would be how the character ended up. Or you have 4 classes+ power/talent options.

However I would steamline it even further to an extreme degree. There is an OSR game called The Black Hack which is 20 pages long. The idea would be to reduce the classes down to 3-5, and each class would have no moving parts what so ever but it would use the 4E engine and powers. There are no feats, powers do exist a'la 4E and function exactly the same in terms of AEDU at least they might vary but each class might only have 4 or 5 powers and they scale on the other levels. The idea would be to have a character sheet as small as possible 1 maybe two pages, and it could even be abbreviated perhaps to a couple of paragraphs. All your powers are fixed in essences.

Idea 2 is its a bit more advanced, you do get a few more moving parts similar to 5E and you can pick some different powers, feats or class abilities. There are no subclasses but you might be able to build your own via talent trees/powers. A lot of classes would not exist though the tempest fighter might be able to be constructed with the default Warrior.

The powers would be very similar to the existing 4E powers maybe grab a character op guide however and eliminate everything that its not gold or light blue at the most. Even with the options though something like Frostcheese or radiant mafia can't be built but you might have 4-6 options to pick from a few times during your career. If you ever played B/X back in the day clerics for example only had 8 spells at each level, wizards had 12 (but didn't get to pick them). Its unlikely there would be very many levels, 10 maybe 15, 20 at the absolute max (probably 10 for the advanced version, 15-20 with the no moving parts one). 13th age has 10, B/X clones tend to have 14 (or less for some races)

If paragon and epic tier exist they would be scaled back to 4/3/3 or 6/5/4 or 8/6/6 or something like that. Heroic tiers would get more levels anyway (because most D&Ders don't play high level).

No I am not designing such a game (well maybe a SWSE 5E hack with a mate), but just wondering if a 100 page Basic Fantasy version of a 4E type game was ever made would you play it. There is no right or wrong answer, no agenda or gotcha or anything like that. You can assume it is tailored to your tastes the only requirement is you may be the one writing it so in theory less is more (you have a deadline if you write it say one year or two years). You may not be the one writing it just imagine if you had to.

Would you consider a basic version for short games, the advanced version would probably have the same powers but add more so you could swap some out. Total powers would be 1/3rd or less of the 5E spell section of the class chapter of the 4E PHB. Powers might be gated behind requirements (power source, level etc).

Idea 1 already exists. Play D&D 4E using DMG2's companion character rules:
- Only 4 classes (striker, controller, leader, defender) and each class only has a single class feature
- No feats
- No daily attack powers
- No paragon paths or epic destinies
- MM3 On A Business Card math for PCs
- Leveling up lets you swap out powers instead of constantly adding new ones (although you can add a new power at paragon and epic)
- Character sheet fits on a 1 page statblock

I think you could tweak some things to add a bit more complexity and options, but these options work just fine in 4E.

Hard pass. I don't particularly like D&D-variant games that boil classes down until barely anything is left.

Lord Shark said:

Hard pass. I don't particularly like D&D-variant games that boil classes down until barely anything is left.

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Same. Lost me at folding 3 classes into 1 and ditching Jedi as a class. I’d be fine with opening Jedi up into a Force Adept class with some Jedi talent trees, but not going the other way.

I find Star Wars RPGs get better the further it gets from d20 systems. FFG's narrative dice system is far superior for cinematic play that isn't bogged by power levels and character builds, which I find often detracts from storytelling. I'd also give the old WEG system consideration before another dressed-up D&D system. Let D&D do what it does best: D&D.

Lord Shark said:

Hard pass. I don't particularly like D&D-variant games that boil classes down until barely anything is left.

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Agreed.

4E can become overly complex, like many editions of D&D and many RPGs, but that complexity has existing ways to be moderated (such as PHB only or using the online character builder) and that is enough moderation for me to still feel like I'm playing 4E but with limits.

Jacob Lewis said:

I find Star Wars RPGs get better the further it gets from d20 systems. FFG's narrative dice system is far superior for cinematic play that isn't bogged by power levels and character builds, which I find often detracts from storytelling. I'd also give the old WEG system consideration before another dressed-up D&D system. Let D&D do what it does best: D&D.

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I have a respectable D6 collection don't worry. Didn't get the ffg version as I have 2 I won't have time for 3.

If I’m running Star Wars, I’m likely running Strike! (Which is the best 4e derivative) with their Vehicle module.

Well, I think of my own game as being something like a simplification of 4e. It isn't specifically intended to be drastically simpler, as I think 4e is actually pretty conceptually simple. I did 'fix' things that inhibited that simplicity though, like the divergence between ability, skill, and attack checks. I also in the process changed the engine in a few ways which also helps to simplify and sharpen its function without materially altering the basic mechanics.

I cut the number of levels from 30 to 20, but retained the 3-tier concept, this reduces the need for 'level filler' in the material. Classes could be said to work a bit more like a 'tree' concept, except I have explicitly eschewed the idea of outright dependencies. That is, things like powers are acquired, mostly, from the acquisition of boons, which is the leveling mechanism. Since dependencies don't strictly exist, most characters could in theory acquire almost any arbitrary power or mechanic. Each class has a very small core of reserved feature mechanics which provide role support. Beyond that there are generally obvious initial choices for level 1 builds, and higher level boons which are often pretty clear in terms of what they represent. However, heavy reflavoring and changing of 'embodiment' of boons is expected (IE in HoML items are simply boons, and thus effectively a part of class leveling, but any boon could be embodied as an item, or as training, imbuement, a grant, or as a manifestation).

There are no feats, boons can also cover this area. The end result is, you get one boon per level (gaining one is what results in leveling, so this is definitional) and each one could be akin to a 4e feat, or provide access to 1-3 new powers. Some could take on the character of PPs or EDs as well, though I have not really explored those concepts in any real depth in play.

Like your SWSE hack the result is a game where there are a LOT less added powers larded onto characters, even 20th level PCs only get 2/4/4 (10 slots, plus utilities which are not slotted). This is still a fair number, but given that there aren't additionally feats granting other stuff, 'built in' powers, nor 'slotless' powers acquired from items the end result is a vastly less burdensome game at high levels. Instead it is expected that powers and class features, as well as powers and narrative play, will interact strongly. The 'utility' concept is also extended so there are no limited slots, and covers 'practices' which are your ritual-type 'stuff' that isn't normally available in an action sequence (combat or similar turn-based action).

As I never got into SWSE I am not sure that, mechanically, this is closer to it than 4e, but I think there is a certain sense in which I've moved in that direction, with less 'stuff' in the game, but what is there has more 'meat' to it.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Well, I think of my own game as being something like a simplification of 4e. It isn't specifically intended to be drastically simpler, as I think 4e is actually pretty conceptually simple. I did 'fix' things that inhibited that simplicity though, like the divergence between ability, skill, and attack checks. I also in the process changed the engine in a few ways which also helps to simplify and sharpen its function without materially altering the basic mechanics.

I cut the number of levels from 30 to 20, but retained the 3-tier concept, this reduces the need for 'level filler' in the material. Classes could be said to work a bit more like a 'tree' concept, except I have explicitly eschewed the idea of outright dependencies. That is, things like powers are acquired, mostly, from the acquisition of boons, which is the leveling mechanism. Since dependencies don't strictly exist, most characters could in theory acquire almost any arbitrary power or mechanic. Each class has a very small core of reserved feature mechanics which provide role support. Beyond that there are generally obvious initial choices for level 1 builds, and higher level boons which are often pretty clear in terms of what they represent. However, heavy reflavoring and changing of 'embodiment' of boons is expected (IE in HoML items are simply boons, and thus effectively a part of class leveling, but any boon could be embodied as an item, or as training, imbuement, a grant, or as a manifestation).

There are no feats, boons can also cover this area. The end result is, you get one boon per level (gaining one is what results in leveling, so this is definitional) and each one could be akin to a 4e feat, or provide access to 1-3 new powers. Some could take on the character of PPs or EDs as well, though I have not really explored those concepts in any real depth in play.

Like your SWSE hack the result is a game where there are a LOT less added powers larded onto characters, even 20th level PCs only get 2/4/4 (10 slots, plus utilities which are not slotted). This is still a fair number, but given that there aren't additionally feats granting other stuff, 'built in' powers, nor 'slotless' powers acquired from items the end result is a vastly less burdensome game at high levels. Instead it is expected that powers and class features, as well as powers and narrative play, will interact strongly. The 'utility' concept is also extended so there are no limited slots, and covers 'practices' which are your ritual-type 'stuff' that isn't normally available in an action sequence (combat or similar turn-based action).

As I never got into SWSE I am not sure that, mechanically, this is closer to it than 4e, but I think there is a certain sense in which I've moved in that direction, with less 'stuff' in the game, but what is there has more 'meat' to it.

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That is a good way of putting my idea. Less stuff more meat.

SWSE is very close to 4E mechanically except they don't use AC, which is folded into your NADs. Weapons and armor are more 3.5 style than 4E. They're basically using the 4E engine, classes are different, force powers are encounter powers.

You could use the 4E engine mix it with 5E bounded accuracy and use it to clone B/X, 3.x, 4E or a slightly more complicated 5E. A tweaked B/X fighter could have a single power that scales and still be very very basic. THe SWSE character sheet is really elegant and I thought I could clean it up even more.