Initiative options?

dnd4vr said:

Hi all,

I was thinking about Initiative a lot lately. Does anyone have any variant so it isn't just "I go, you go, I go, you go"?

Even rolling each round, it is still basically always I get a turn then you and alternates. My group is looking for something more dynamic and purposeful.

Any thoughts?

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I gotta figure if you don't go IGOUGO, then you've got to work out some sort of WEGO system where everyone declares their intentions for the round (perhaps a recording nightmare) and then everything gets resolved at once....now that's completely doable, but it clashes pretty hard with the "action" system than what 5e provides for players. Several Apocalypse Engine games have something like this, and it usually covers the fictional equivalent of more than one D&D round.

I have heard some people just abandon mechanization almost entirely and just do like Dungeon World, where people go as it seems to fit the fiction....I suppose that would work for some folks, but I can't imagine it with my group.

I haven't really run into any system for just initiative that I think can make D&D combat more "dynamic and purposeful". although I have fiddled around with modifying movement to do so.

So when you say you want "initiative" to matter more, do you mean the initiative modifier or the initiative process? It sounds like you are talking about the modifier mattering more. The solution to that is easy: more initiative checks, other than just the one to start combat.

My suggestion, for both problems, would be to ditch the Ready action, which I find counter-intuitive, and instead adopt the "On Hold" mechanic from Savage Worlds.
1. Roll initiative as normal at the start of combat.
2. On your turn, instead of moving and taking your action(s), you can go "on hold." Things that go on the start or end of your turn happen now, except for negative conditions that you are suffering that stop or have a chance to stop at the end of your turn.
3. Later, you can take your move and actions whenever you want. BUT if you are trying to interrupt someone else, or two characters on hold try to act at the same time, you roll a contest of initiative to determine who goes first. The winner goes first, and the loser MUST take their move and actions afterwards or forfeit them; you can't lose and then choose to stay on hold. Once you take your move and actions, resolve any end-of-turn things that remove negative conditions from you.
4. If the initiative count comes back around to you and you're still on hold, your move actions are forfeit, and you take your turn as usual (and you might just choose to go on hold again). Basically you wasted a round. Any end-of-turn things that remove negative conditions from you happen just before the start of your next turn.

Advantages of this system:
1. Characters with high initiative rolls at the start of combat have more flexibility in when they act.
2. Characters with high initiative modifiers are more likely to interrupt other characters or preempt them.
3. Players who are indecisive on their turn can just go on hold instead of acting (they neither waste their turn "dodging" nor get saddled with a sub-par "readied action").
4. The Ready action has so many stipulations, caveats, and exceptions that I find it very counter-intuitive, and I've seen a lot of new players have trouble with it, too. This can lead to the feeling that a higher initiative roll is actually bad if you're not in a good position to act when your turn comes around, because Ready is so cumbersome. I don't like the idea that a higher modifier could inadvertently make things worse for you.

This system may increase complexity during game-play if lots of characters use it all the time. However, my experience with Savage Worlds is that players don't choose to go on hold all that often. Usually, taking your turn now is worth more than the chance to interrupt someone later (depending on how high your initiative modifier is). DISCLAIMER: I have not yet tried this approach with 5e; there may be something else about the 5e rules that make this system more complicated than it is in Savage Worlds.

If you only roll init once at the start of a combat, you can almost get rid of it. Going first is an advantage though that first time, and really how much time does sorting out init once take?

I prefer changing init each round, because it keeps things unpredictable and I like dangerous gameplay, which this encourages. But it is too slow to roll init and compare everyone's scores and sort out the order, etc.

My two suggested fixes are:

1. PCs make a roll under Dex check (or avg of Int & Dex, or whatever). If success, they go before monsters. If fail, they go after. This is much quicker than also having to have the GM roll, and everyone compare and sort out an order. A player immediately knows from their own roll if they go before monsters or after and can just decalre it. PCs sort out their own order, and GM sorts out monster order on the fly.

2. Use cards. Card for each monster type and PCs get a card each. Draw to see who acts next. Advantage on this system is quick, fun to draw cards, and most importantly no-one knows who is acting next... increases combat unpredictability which = more dangerous = I like.

Ilbranteloth said:

Yes. We only use initiative as an opposes check when you need to know what action resolves first. Otherwise we don’t use it at all.

Everybody describes what they are doing, and the DM does the same for the monsters. Actions are resolved in a logical order, often resolving the full change of blows between two combatants, and others can react to the action that’s already happened.

It’s relatively rare that you actually need to
Know who hit first. Unless it’s a killing blow, your each just taking damage.

We have a number of guidelines written up, but that’s the gist of it. Have been using it for several years now, with groups as large as 13 players. Works great.

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care to share?

Have you looked at Hackmaster? They have an interesting system i've wanted to try. He is a description of play: https://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/downloads/HMb_KODT_Combat_Example.pdf

Basically everyone declares actions and then just goes. The person who has the best initiative starts their action first, but all actions have a speed, so the action is resolved when the speed is up. So if the fighter wins initiative and says a run toward the goblins and attack. Will the running might take 5 seconds (I think that is what they call them) and the attack 2 seconds. The goblin, who had a crossbow ready, can fire its crossbow in 4 seconds. So the goblin shoots the cross as the fighter is running at it. Something like that.

dave2008 said:

care to share?

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It is in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...verybody-resolves-WAS-Simultaneous-Initiative

OK - I already subscribe to that thread

2. Use cards. Card for each monster type and PCs get a card each. Draw to see who acts next. Advantage on this system is quick, fun to draw cards, and most importantly no-one knows who is acting next... increases combat unpredictability which = more dangerous = I like.

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This. Except unless the bad guys are a huge mob, every participant gets their own card. No modifiers for high dex. If you have the Alert feat you get advantage on init (an extra card).

Everyone likes the unpredictability and there is no metagaming where people (among other things) can plan to help a fallen comrade or not because they know exactly when everyone acts in a round. "I'll attack instead of healing you because Bob can get to you before the dragon attacks again."

Here’s something I’m playing with.

Every monster group and each player rolls a d8 at the start of combat. That’s your starting position. The person with the highest roll goes first, then resets their d8 to a 1. Each time anyone takes an action, everyone advances their d8 by 1. When your d8 reaches 8, it’s your turn. After your turn, it rolls back to 1. You can go again when your d8 reaches 8. If there’s a turn wherein nobody can act (everyone’s die shows a result less than 8), then you can just advance again, or re-roll.

With 4 players and 2-3 monster groups, you’re usually ok.

I haven’t built further than that but I was thinking of spells like haste and slow messing with the size of the die. Or knock back/knockdown type attacks setting the die back a few spaces (maybe equal to the attacker’s str mod or something).
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I’ve tried it another way, too. Everyone rolls a d12 and leaves it on the table. The DM turns a big “master d12” every turn, and your turn is when the master d12 shows the number you rolled. You can go again once the master d12 comes back around to your number.

These systems are ok. At least I don’t have to write anything down. But I think they’d be better if other stuff could hang on them. Like if it was somewhat gameable. Or perhaps varied a bit. Say a rogue and a ranger had a smaller die. They’d go sooner on average than other classes, but they’d still get the same number of turns. Or say some leader-y monsters could advance the dice of their minions. Or a critical hit maybe didn’t do extra damage but instead reset the target’s counter. Stuff like that.

Honestly, I struggle between complexity and simplicity. I would like something random and non-repeating, quick but not turn-based. I would settle for a happy middle ground, but so far I am not finding anything I like.

Again, thanks for all the suggestions. It is all giving me stuff to think about.