Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Morrus · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Saw them in VHS, I did see Jedi at the theatre. I didn't have any if the merch as a child couldn't afford it. That came in 93+.

Would you stop quoting my post over and over again, please? I don’t need my phone constantly notifying me you’ve quoted my same post again.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Apr 17, 2019

I can see why TFA went back to basically retell A New Hope - because that original story is powerful and just works. If you want to relaunch your franchise, you have to realize its strength. What captured a wide audience back then will capture a wide audience now. It is really secondary if this is particularly appealing to old fans or not. It's appealing to audiences in general.

The key problem that I had with TLJ was actually something carried forward with TFA, but which I didn't fully understand or grasp then. TFA was mostly disappointing to me since it felt like a retelling of A New Hope, and I've seen that story already. But the new characters seemed likeable, it was a good idea to not pick Kylo Ren that the movie is trying to sell me as someone even nastier than Darth Vader, but is actually a "wannabe". That was kinda couragous, but also kinda sensible, because you can't really one-up Vader. And having a new force sensitive hero go from nothing to Jedi looked promising. And I like female protagonists. Making another protagonist an Ex-Stormtrooper was also interesting, we hadn't really seen much of that side of the world.

The problem is that the heroes of the original trilogy are basically turning into failures. They didn't beat the Empire, it is still strong in the First ORder, and it's blowing up their world. Han and Leia didn't stay together, they split over their son turning to the Dark Side. And Luke Skywalker didn'T really embrace his Jedi heritage, he gave up on it, and he abandoned his sister and best friend and the Republic in the time of their greatest need.
It wasn'T quite as in the face in TFA, because in TFA we could still pretend there was maybe a good reason for Luke hiding away. But TLJ's reason for it just isn't satisfying.
I think one probably could tell a story where Luke Skywalker gives up on the force. But it would be its own movie, not a quick flashback, if you want me to believe and accept it.

There were other problems in TLJ that really were just TLJs.
The Momma/Telephone joke in the beginning was just too absurd, and a lot of the initial battle - and later parts of the movie - relied on the heroes and villains being incompetent. The plot on Canto relies on luck (of course, they don't find the hacker they seek, but another guy that is just as good) and incompetence (they land their shuttle in a forbidden zone), plus nonsense (animal slavery is apparently worse than child slavery, plus what is stopping anyone from capturing the animals?). The mutiny on the Resistance ships seems to only happen because the leader can't communicate with one of the more influential and respected officers.

Maybe it is rose-colored glasses, but except for the Storm Troopers constantly missing in V and VI, the Empire and the Rebellion seemed to be fairly good at the things they are supposed to be good at.
The troopers shooting in Episode IV is actually understandable - the Millennium Falcon got a tracker installed, so the rebels needed to escape to lead the Empire to the Rebel Base. Han or Luke not being qualified to run an extraction on the Death Star is not surprising - but they did fairly well.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
Would you stop quoting my post over and over again, please? I don’t need my phone constantly notifying me you’ve quoted my same post again.

Sorry it was my phone doing it. Hit quote button it keeps copy and pasting it for whatever reason.

Istbor · Apr 17, 2019

Honestly. Did we ever consider that all of these cool and familiar force powers are the reason Rey can use them? Because we've seen them, we love them, they evoke Jedi to a wide array. And for younger and newer audiences, it grabs attention and sticks in the mind.

I agree that trying to plot out some convoluted "This is the progression of a true Jedi!, is ridiculous. There is no metric, nor should there be. They are just cool space wizard powers. Why does that have to change? And, will it change back if Rey is shown to be a Skywalker. Will people still gnash their teeth as much. I am interested to see how many back off when they have that bloodline behind her.

Who knows. I have problems with the movie too (Cantobite!), but I still overall enjoy it, and welcome it into the saga.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
I can see why TFA went back to basically retell A New Hope - because that original story is powerful and just works. If you want to relaunch your franchise, you have to realize its strength. What captured a wide audience back then will capture a wide audience now. It is really secondary if this is particularly appealing to old fans or not. It's appealing to audiences in general.

The key problem that I had with TLJ was actually something carried forward with TFA, but which I didn't fully understand or grasp then. TFA was mostly disappointing to me since it felt like a retelling of A New Hope, and I've seen that story already. But the new characters seemed likeable, it was a good idea to not pick Kylo Ren that the movie is trying to sell me as someone even nastier than Darth Vader, but is actually a "wannabe". That was kinda couragous, but also kinda sensible, because you can't really one-up Vader. And having a new force sensitive hero go from nothing to Jedi looked promising. And I like female protagonists. Making another protagonist an Ex-Stormtrooper was also interesting, we hadn't really seen much of that side of the world.

The problem is that the heroes of the original trilogy are basically turning into failures. They didn't beat the Empire, it is still strong in the First ORder, and it's blowing up their world. Han and Leia didn't stay together, they split over their son turning to the Dark Side. And Luke Skywalker didn'T really embrace his Jedi heritage, he gave up on it, and he abandoned his sister and best friend and the Republic in the time of their greatest need.
It wasn'T quite as in the face in TFA, because in TFA we could still pretend there was maybe a good reason for Luke hiding away. But TLJ's reason for it just isn't satisfying.
I think one probably could tell a story where Luke Skywalker gives up on the force. But it would be its own movie, not a quick flashback, if you want me to believe and accept it.

There were other problems in TLJ that really were just TLJs.
The Momma/Telephone joke in the beginning was just too absurd, and a lot of the initial battle - and later parts of the movie - relied on the heroes and villains being incompetent. The plot on Canto relies on luck (of course, they don't find the hacker they seek, but another guy that is just as good) and incompetence (they land their shuttle in a forbidden zone), plus nonsense (animal slavery is apparently worse than child slavery, plus what is stopping anyone from capturing the animals?). The mutiny on the Resistance ships seems to only happen because the leader can't communicate with one of the more influential and respected officers.

Maybe it is rose-colored glasses, but except for the Storm Troopers constantly missing in V and VI, the Empire and the Rebellion seemed to be fairly good at the things they are supposed to be good at.
The troopers shooting in Episode IV is actually understandable - the Millennium Falcon got a tracker installed, so the rebels needed to escape to lead the Empire to the Rebel Base. Han or Luke not being qualified to run an extraction on the Death Star is not surprising - but they did fairly well.

This TFA was decent enough, not very original but enjoyable. Its not as enjoyable rewatching it after TLJ. Theres a lot of "that's interesting, lets see what happens" and then you get TLJ. Abrams made a bit of effort at weaving in lots of plot threads to follow up on. In TLJ everyone's a failure, villains, new heroes, old ones etc. Well except Rey. Are they trying to make her look good by making everyone else look bad? Deliberately or not that is what they did. They didn't do that in the OP or PT. Leia, Han, Lando, Luke, all make the odd mistake, maybe not Leia so much but shes kinda the brains behind the operation.

You have to like some of the characters at least especially in a franchise, don't have to like all of them. Anakin was crap but you had Obi Wan, Mace Windu, Jango, Palpatine etc and Anakin was fine in the cartoons.

lowkey13 · Apr 17, 2019

*Deleted by user*

MarkB · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Well the extended universe lasted 30 years and feeds into audiences expectations. Sure they decleared it non canon but it doesn't make it go away. The best of it was also up there with ESB.

Disney obviously chose a different approach and hence the backlash, boycotts and financial problems (toylines, Solo).

The thing is, though, they really didn't. George Lucas ignored and overrode the EU just as freely, first with the prequels and then with things like the Clone Wars show. If he'd made the sequels, he'd have happily ignored the EU canon entirely.

All that Disney did was be honest and up-front about their intentions.

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
The problem is that the heroes of the original trilogy are basically turning into failures. They didn't beat the Empire, it is still strong in the First ORder, and it's blowing up their world. Han and Leia didn't stay together, they split over their son turning to the Dark Side. And Luke Skywalker didn'T really embrace his Jedi heritage, he gave up on it, and he abandoned his sister and best friend and the Republic in the time of their greatest need.

I know the feeling, and I've had similar misgivings myself - not about the new trilogy, but about the old EU material.

As much as I understood the attraction of putting our favourite characters through all-new adventures, and new trials and tribulations, it never sat well with me, because I felt that by the end of the original trilogy they'd earned their victory and their happily-ever-after. I think that's the main reason why, although I've enjoyed some individual EU material, I've never been an enthusiast of it as a body of work.

And frankly, what the new canon put our old beloved characters through in its backstory isn't any worse than some of what they've been through in EU material.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

MarkB said:
The thing is, though, they really didn't. George Lucas ignored and overrode the EU just as freely, first with the prequels and then with things like the Clone Wars show. If he'd made the sequels, he'd have happily ignored the EU canon entirely.

All that Disney did was be honest and up-front about their intentions.

I know the feeling, and I've had similar misgivings myself - not about the new trilogy, but about the old EU material.

As much as I understood the attraction of putting our favourite characters through all-new adventures, and new trials and tribulations, it never sat well with me, because I felt that by the end of the original trilogy they'd earned their victory and their happily-ever-after. I think that's the main reason why, although I've enjoyed some individual EU material, I've never been an enthusiast of it as a body of work.

And frankly, what the new canon put our old beloved characters through in its backstory isn't any worse than some of what they've been through in EU material.

You tend to remember the good stuff though and never reread the bad. OT over PT is an example of that. The best of the old EU is up there with Empire and ANH, the worst of it is very very bad but you only read it once.

ccs · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Luke didn't use the force to move the torpedo just aim it. His powers were a lot more restrained as well.

Riiiight, sure he didn't. Those torpedoes just naturally hung that hard right angle into the vent.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

ccs said:
Riiiight, sure he didn't. Those torpedoes just naturally hung that hard right angle into the vent.

Missiles in SW can be guided just like IRL. Hell in the 90's they could put a missile down an air vent (1991). The implication was though he turned his targeting computer off and used the force to aim it. That is pretty much the implication IMHO. In RPG terms he blew a force point.