Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Jester David · Apr 20, 2019

Zardnaar · Apr 21, 2019

Jester that's a weak excuse. I provided links above avout the typical fan. If it was aimed at kids why lean heavily on nostalgia?

The kids grew up and have money and kids if their own.

MarkB · Apr 21, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Jester that's a weak excuse. I provided links above avout the typical fan. If it was aimed at kids why lean heavily on nostalgia?

The kids grew up and have money and kids if their own.

And those kids have also watched the previous trilogies and want more of the same.

Mercurius · Apr 21, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
My issue is, why would a woman use the force differently, in a universe or where they seem to take it for granted that female and male humans (much less other species) aren’t meaningfully different?

I disagree with this assessment. First of all, the Star Wars universe is based upon our own in which male and females are "meaningfully different," at least if you think biology and tens of thousands of years of cultural patterns matter. Secondly, even if we view SW as an entirely different universe, it is still based upon mythic ideas from our world, in which there male and female are quite archetypally different. In fact, some have criticized Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey for being overly male-centric, that the "female journey" is or can be quite different.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 21, 2019

Mercurius said:
I disagree with this assessment. First of all, the Star Wars universe is based upon our own in which male and females are "meaningfully different," at least if you think biology and tens of thousands of years of cultural patterns matter. Secondly, even if we view SW as an entirely different universe, it is still based upon mythic ideas from our world, in which there male and female are quite archetypally different. In fact, some have criticized Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey for being overly male-centric, that the "female journey" is or can be quite different.

There is no evidence that the SW Galaxy is as deeply gender split as our own, or that the same cultural and influences exist to push people toward the same roles and tropes such male aggression and female nurturing, etc. There is a good deal of positive evidence that the SWG does not feature those elements.

SW shares this with much of fantasy and science fiction in general.

Beyond that, I’m not sure what would be new at all about what you’re proposing. The heroine being a nurturer or peacemaker instead of a warrior...isn’t new. It’s the overwhelming cultural assumption of most media.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 21, 2019

Double post

Mercurius · Apr 21, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
There is no evidence that the SW Galaxy is as deeply gender split as our own, or that the same cultural and influences exist to push people toward the same roles and tropes such male aggression and female nurturing, etc. There is a good deal of positive evidence that the SWG does not feature those elements.

SW shares this with much of fantasy and science fiction in general.

Beyond that, I’m not sure what would be new at all about what you’re proposing. The heroine being a nurturer or peacemaker instead of a warrior...isn’t new. It’s the overwhelming cultural assumption of most media.

You're reading too much into what I'm saying. In truth, I'm not proposing anything specific, like heroine as nurturer or peacemaker. If anything I am suggesting that what a hero/heroine is can be quite different, and that there are interesting archetypal possibilities to explore.

Furthermore, you seem to ignore the fact that SW is based on Joseph Campbell's ideas about mythology, which very much embrace different masculine and feminine archetypes.

Look, I get what you don't like and I don't like it either: that men or women "have to" be a certain way along culturally bound stereotypes; and we both like our fantasy to be free from such notions. But I'm talking more along an archetypal level, which fits in with the mythological view of Campbell and the original vision of Star Wars, and would allow for deeper differences in male and female beyond just different body shapes and cultural stereotypes. Unfortunately in today's cultural debates, the differences between a stereotype and an archetype are not well understood.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 21, 2019

Mercurius said:
You're reading too much into what I'm saying. In truth, I'm not proposing anything specific, like heroine as nurturer or peacemaker. If anything I am suggesting that what a hero/heroine is can be quite different, and that there are interesting archetypal possibilities to explore.

Furthermore, you seem to ignore the fact that SW is based on Joseph Campbell's ideas about mythology, which very much embrace different masculine and feminine archetypes.

Look, I get what you don't like and I don't like it either: that men or women "have to" be a certain way along culturally bound stereotypes; and we both like our fantasy to be free from such notions. But I'm talking more along an archetypal level, which fits in with the mythological view of Campbell and the original vision of Star Wars, and would allow for deeper differences in male and female beyond just different body shapes and cultural stereotypes. Unfortunately in today's cultural debates, the differences between a stereotype and an archetype are not well understood.

Nope. I understand you perfectly, and I disagree with you.

Star Wars is no more bound to Campbell than it is to Taoism, and likewise not bound to IRL cultural bounds. It’s speculative fiction.

Mercurius · Apr 21, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Nope. I understand you perfectly, and I disagree with you.

Star Wars is no more bound to Campbell than it is to Taoism, and likewise not bound to IRL cultural bounds. It’s speculative fiction.

Evidently you don't understand me perfectly because I'm not saying SW is "bound" to Campbell, Taoism, or anything in particular - including whatever the latest ideological trends of Hollywood. I am saying that SW is richer for being connected to deeper ideas of myth (Campbell) and spiritual wisdom (Taoism).

doctorbadwolf · Apr 21, 2019

Mercurius said:
Evidently you don't understand me perfectly because I'm not saying SW is "bound" to Campbell, Taoism, or anything in particular - including whatever the latest ideological trends of Hollywood. I am saying that SW is richer for being connected to deeper ideas of myth (Campbell) and spiritual wisdom (Taoism).

The difference is semantic. Your posts continually push those infleunces quite strongly as things that must be contended with. Telling me that I’m “ignoring” the connection of Campbell, for instance.

The actual point of contention is whether it’s new and interesting to make female heroes that are different from male heroes because of their gender. IMO, few things could be less new or interesting.