Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

Imaro

Legend
I do it all the time in normal conversation. If I'm describing something, I use my ordinary speech patterns and vocabulary to elaborate until I feel I've arrived at an adequate description. I try not to overthink how I'm using the language. Are you always aware of the formal quality of your everyday speech?

To a certain extent I would say yes. I certainly don't add all kinds of words to my description of a situation without any regard for its formal quality, especially when speaking to colleagues at work, explaining something to others and so on. Very rarely am I wholly unaware of the formal quality of my everyday speech as I know many people are apt to judge you by it.
 

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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
It adds to the quality of the narrative, so it applies.

But does any incremental improvement in the quality of the narrative whatsoever qualify the game as a literary endeavor? I don't think so. I think that for such improvements to qualify, they have to be made with the purpose of enhancing the formal, literary qualities of the descriptions and narrations in which they appear. There are many other reasons to make improvements to the narrative other than to make it more literary. Maybe it just makes for a better story if you talk about some detail or other.
 

Imaro

Legend
But does any incremental improvement in the quality of the narrative whatsoever qualify the game as a literary endeavor? I don't think so. I think that for such improvements to qualify, they have to be made with the purpose of enhancing the formal, literary qualities of the descriptions and narrations in which they appear. There are many other reasons to make improvements to the narrative other than to make it more literary. Maybe it just makes for a better story if you talk about some detail or other.

This makes no sense. I would think improvement of the narrative, generation of content and nearly everything else we've discussed is ultimately done first and foremost for the purpose of running the game. I mean I'm not creating content for the purpose of just having good content, I'm generating it to better my game.
 

Who does this??

Plenty of people. I can add words to a description because I want to convey more information, knowing I am detracting from the literary quality of it. I do that all the time. Even when I am not GMing but writing an RPG. My concern is never the literary quality, I am much more interested in conveying the information I want and the style of gaming I want.
 

To a certain extent I would say yes. I certainly don't add all kinds of words to my description of a situation without any regard for its formal quality, especially when speaking to colleagues at work, explaining something to others and so on. Very rarely am I wholly unaware of the formal quality of my everyday speech as I know many people are apt to judge you by it.

If that is how you talk, that is how you talk. But this is not how many people engage the world. I don't particularly worry about this. At the end of the day, if I am not good enough for people, I am not good enough for them. I don't need to do a dance or perform to bridge a gap.

This actually makes me a little mad to read. Why would you judge someone just by the way they speak? That is usually more about a person's background than anything else.
 

Imaro

Legend
If that is how you talk, that is how you talk. But this is not how many people engage the world. I don't particularly worry about this. At the end of the day, if I am not good enough for people, I am not good enough for them. I don't need to do a dance or perform to bridge a gap.

This actually makes me a little mad to read. Why would you judge someone just by the way they speak? That is usually more about a person's background than anything else.

People are judged on numerous things... why would how they speak be an exception? Do you really think how you converse isn't judged by people?
 

People are judged on numerous things... why would how they speak be an exception? Do you really think how you converse isn't judged by people?

I do think people often judge by how we converse...but I don't think it is a good way to judge a person. So often how we talk is a product of class and other things beyond people's control. We often attribute things to styles of speaking (like intellect for example) that really are more about how people you grew up with spoke. And just on a moral level, that isn't how I want to judge people. I feel like when we talk about judging people over how they speak what we are looking for is if they grew up with money and had a thorough education. When it comes to GMs and players, I don't particularly care how people speak. I am more interest in what is behind the speech.
 

Imaro

Legend
I do think people often judge by how we converse...but I don't think it is a good way to judge a person. So often how we talk is a product of class and other things beyond people's control. We often attribute things to styles of speaking (like intellect for example) that really are more about how people you grew up with spoke. And just on a moral level, that isn't how I want to judge people. I feel like when we talk about judging people over how they speak what we are looking for is if they grew up with money and had a thorough education. When it comes to GMs and players, I don't particularly care how people speak. I am more interest in what is behind the speech.

Well all I can say is being aware of the fact that, irregardless of right or wrong, people are judged by how they speak and also being a black man who works in corporate America... I have to continuously be conscious of how I converse with others for the majority of my day on a regular basis... I can't afford to not care, different experiences and all that I guess. Note I agree with your sentiment, I just don't think it's many people's reality.
 

Well all I can say is being aware of the fact that, irregardless of right or wrong, people are judged by how they speak and also being a black man who works in corporate America... I have to continuously be conscious of how I converse with others for the majority of my day on a regular basis... I can't afford to not care, different experiences and all that I guess. Note I agree with your sentiment, I just don't think it's many people's reality.

I am not saying it isn't the case. I am just saying, I don't want to contribute to it being the case.
 

Hussar

Legend
Both me and Pemerton have addressed this point. I think we made the point somewhat differently but essentially described it more as inhabiting the character than as performing. There can be performative aspects to it, but I don't worry so much about them. This is particularly the case on the player end. As far as I am concerned what matters is the first person, not that the player portray a character. They could be playing themselves in the first person and I would be fine with it. Obviously the GM has to run multiple characters who exist in the world, so they need to account for things like personality and knowledge the character has. But I don't expect a performance in the sense of using voices, gestures, etc.



Again, I think so much of this thread is really about playstyle. And you see that when we talk about playstyel differences. I think talking about the specific example is much more productive than the general rules and general terms (because the terms are quite broad, and obviously there are places where I may agree performance could matter). It is just the way things like performance, presentations, etc have been used are done so to paint a picture of RPGs that doesn't match how Pemerton or I see the game. When we talk about specifics, it becomes easy to hash over those differences. When we talk in generalities, it becomes more like maneuvering a chess piece in the conversation to force people to accept specifics before they arise. I am really not trying to be difficult here. But I've just been in enough of these kinds of discussions to get that. And I think it is important to push people to talk about what they are really talking about. And what we are really talking about isn't categorization or modeling of the RPG experience, we are talking about how we want the game to be run and how we want games to be made (and you see that because it repeatedly comes up and people repeatedly argue over it).

Now, think about this 1st person argument for a second. You will, presumably, choose to speak in a certain way and use certain words in an attempt to "portray a character", right? You wouldn't proclaim, in character, in a fantasy game, "Hey, that looks like the critter at the end of Men in Black!" That would be considered out of character, no?

So, as soon as you add in that criteria - what I say should be in keeping with the character that I'm playing - you have left the realm of conversation and gone into the literary. You would never think, "Hrm, given what I think about me, I think I should say X and not Y" in a conversation. You aren't trying to portray yourself. :D

Thus, play always is a literary endeavor. You are using literary criteria to judge and control what you say during the game and people's enjoyment of the game will be affected by that judgement.
 

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