D&D 5E Help me with good RP/Optimization balance for Half-Elf (probably)Valor Bard (archer?)

Tony Vargas

Legend
Is there something you'd recommend outside an archer bard that would fit my char's style (maybe some simple-type multiclass I mentioned in the OP or something else)? Also, is a ranged bard preferable to keep him safer due to lower defense/HP and for spell concentration?
JMHO, but if you're going to stick to range, you might as well fall back to cantrips for at-will plinking, rather than string a bow. It's convenient, lets you focus on your caster stat, and the bard's attack cantrips can be pretty fun in their own right.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
My character is a Warlock with the healer feat. It has 7 cantrips of which 2 deal damage, plus Guidance (Pact of the Tome). Healer feat via variant human plus it can heal a bit and knows the cure spell.

Its charismatic, SAD, and is great at social stuff and utility and has a few rituals. Can't really buff but its effective a good damage archer build with a lot of utility via rituals, cantrips, healer feat, guidance. Its a better archer than an actual archer as I use hex as well.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
My character is a Warlock with the healer feat. It has 7 cantrips of which 2 deal damage, plus Guidance (Pact of the Tome). Healer feat via variant human plus it can heal a bit and knows the cure spell.

Its charismatic, SAD, and is great at social stuff and utility and has a few rituals. Can't really buff but its effective a good damage archer build with a lot of utility via rituals, cantrips, healer feat, guidance. Its a better archer than an actual archer as I use hex as well.

Yes!

Heck that's a story all by itself! So you *call* yourself a skald, and you even have the entertainer background (BTW, SUPER IMPORTANT: If you are new to 5e, be sure to read the background chapter! It's not just roleplaying fluff, half your skills can come from your background. It's like a mini-class!).

You know how to heal, you know how to fight (pact of the blade maybe?), you know how to sing... but you have a secret. You really didn't have that *spark* that distinguishes great bards (ie the one with bardic magic) from others. Until one day, you met that mysterious teacher...
 

OlegRu

First Post
Yes!

Heck that's a story all by itself! So you *call* yourself a skald, and you even have the entertainer background (BTW, SUPER IMPORTANT: If you are new to 5e, be sure to read the background chapter! It's not just roleplaying fluff, half your skills can come from your background. It's like a mini-class!).

You know how to heal, you know how to fight (pact of the blade maybe?), you know how to sing... but you have a secret. You really didn't have that *spark* that distinguishes great bards (ie the one with bardic magic) from others. Until one day, you met that mysterious teacher...

Thanks for the replies @Paul Farquhar @Zardnaar and @Ancalagon, and all due respect, but I really want to stick to playing a bard and just interested in having him be an archer so that he can deal some attack damage/and survive combat because he's further from the worst monsters. Things like Paladin, Warlock wouldn't match his backstory or the way I want to RP him.
 

OlegRu

First Post
Apparently the original version of this formatted weird, so the edit.

1) Your primary thing will be neither Ranged combat nor Melee combat, it will be spells. Just because Bards can use weapons doesn't make them anything other than what they are: A primary spellcaster.

2) That said, by all means a rapier and a longbow and a good Dex are all a good idea, then you can stick stuff from Range or Melee when you aren't slinging spells.

3) I would make rapier/shield the default, because that +2 AC from the shield will give you a better AC, and nothing makes a Lower Con score more tolerable than taking less damage

4) Glad you like skills, because you took the right class, with Jack of All Trades you get all of them! (kinda), + all the tools, + initiative bonus, + any other ability checks.

If it was me, I would half-plate up whether it gave me disadvantage on stealth or not, but if that's a big deal, then yes, a breastplate is a good option.

5) When it comes to ability score increases - I would recommend Warcaster first and foremost, otherwise you can't perform somatic components when that rapier and shield are out. Then I would get that Cha up to 20. Again, spells are the real power of a Bard, not sticking people with sharp stuff (unless that "sharp stuff" are a bunch of animated objects!). After Cha is 20, then if you like Sharpshooter, or Dex, or whatever, go for it.

Hope that helps.

Hey man - thanks for the answers and your videos.

So I see you are from the "don't fight with your valor bard, cast with him" camp :)

Interesting how different the suggestions are that I read from different sources.

Others have recommended something like taking Sharpshooter first, then raising +2 CHA to 18(since the bard is a significant caster as you said), then raising DEX to 18, then Warcaster or Charisma to 20. Also, many recommended a 1 lvl fighter dip for the archery fighting style to offset sharpshooter's -5 attack and so on.


3. I get it about the damage, but having sword and shield equipped will really mess with my casting (need a free hand for Material component, even after warcaster helps with the Somatic) and also leaves me more open to being hit as this is melee. With a bow I can keep my distance, hide behind stuff, and let one hand go to cast whenever. Having a rapier/shield at the ready, I can sometimes take em out and do some fighting in safer battles or for flavor.

4. A few things I didn't understand that you said about skills - why all the tools? (I get a tool from background and 3 instruments from class, though the DM is letting me mix and match instruments and tools if I want); what initiative bonus?


I understand you are leaning toward recommending more of a spellcaster, but I wanted to ask - what would be good progression choices (Starting options, ASIs, Feats, Spells, MC dip etc.) for each of the 2 types of Valor Bard that we're discussing:

  • Valor Bard Archer that leans more toward spell power
  • Valor Bard Archer that want to get decent with bow+attacks
 

OlegRu

First Post
@OlegRu

1) Bard is pretty much spot on for your concept. If you want to be more skill-focused and a better caster, lore bard is probably a better fit, and certainly fits your RP concept. Valor is generally worthwhile if you're willing to invest feats, ASIs, and spell choices to make your weapon combat. Basically, you'd have to decide how high of a priority good archery is to your character.

You could probably also fit this character concept into a warlock, depending on your willingness to stretch class flavor.

2) Con is very important, for both hit points and for making concentration checks. Most people recommend starting with a 14 here if at all possible.

3) Personally, if I'm sitting back casting, I'd rather have just the shield than just the sword, but that's personal preference.

4) A) Breastplate if you can afford it. B) Scale mail or chain shirt if you can't (depending on how much you value stealth). C) Studded leather if you value stealth, can't afford a breastplate, and have a 16 Dex, OR you decide to go lore bard.

5) Yea, the general feats you'd be looking at are Sharpshooter (a near must for focused archer builds), War Caster (helps with concentration and lets you not worry about hands), and possibly Elven Accuracy. I like Elven Accuracy because it does give a +1 stat bump, and both elves and half elves will usually have a 17 in Cha or Dex at level 1 assuming point buy. Others don't value the bump quite as highly, and it usually devolves into math arguments when discussed. :)

I, personally, don't find character building past level 10 or so very interesting, so I tend to only evaluate the best feats for levels 4 and 8. At levels 12, 16, 19, I assume you'd just want to bump your favorite stat up to 20 if it isn't there already.

6) Tough call. I think in strictly numeric terms getting your main stat to 20 is probably better, but I tend to value the quality of life benefits that feats provide over the number increase. But there's good arguments for either direction. I would personally advise not getting Sharpshooter until 8, because it really starts to pay off once your accuracy has improved and you have more ways to generate advantage. (Even without Elven Accuracy, advantage is huge for Sharpshooters.)

7) Yea, can't trade cantrips, but you can trade in one spell for another whenever you level. For Bards, up to level 10 I tend to think of it as you gain 2 spells every level, but lose 1. Spells to choose have to be based on the concept, but for an archer, anything that gives advantage is good. Look for spells that don't require concentration, and any spells that are bonus actions or reactions.

8) Well, with jack of all trades, you'll be decent at a lot of skills. I tend to prefer to put Expertise in skills I have a high stat in, but really, this is something that can definitely be a role-playing choice. I haven't seen too many DMs play a style where any one particular skill check will make or break you, but only you know that about your own game.

This reply is to TwoSix and tagging [MENTION=59057]UngeheuerLich[/MENTION] as I mentioned.

Thanks for continuing the discussion!

Unfortunately, Warlock really wouldn't fit into my concept - my char would never make such pacts, and similar case paladin. Some did suggest the 1 lvl dip in fighter for archery fighting style, which I would consider.

1. Yeah that seems to be the main dilemma now - how much and when to focus on CHA vs DEX and certain Feats. I definitely want my guy doing some attacking in combat and prefer for him to usually be doing so in a safer way - that's why the ranged, but I see many saying how important it is to focus on casting power.

2. For CON - yeah 14 would be nice, but there's a few WIS based skills that I'm into, so for that reason I wanted to keep a 12 there, leaving me with only 12 for CON.

3+4. A few people have suggested heavier armor and shield - I guess they are imagining more of a battle-mage type dude. For me personally I want the char to be able to stealth without penalties and also attack/cast - the bow seems easiest to let go with one hand, cast something, and shoot more. Shield takes a while to equip and unequip, though I'd probably have one on me just in case I want to go into some melee for flavor or if there's an issue with ranged in a situation.

5. Warcaster and Sharpshooter seem to be the feats most worth getting for my type of build, and seems to make sense to put the rest into ASI's (maybe like 18 dex and 20 cha). Elven accuracy is cool, but perhaps not worth it here, as it takes up a feat/ASI.

6. So you would advise CHA 18, then Sharpshooter, then the rest? Also, by accuracy improvement and generation of advantage do you mean proficiency bonus increase with levels and spells that help with adv.?

7+8. Got it :)

I will ask you the same question I am asking others - What would be good progression choices (Starting options, ASIs, Feats, Spells, MC dip etc.) for each of the 2 types of Valor Bard that we're discussing:

  • Valor Bard Archer that leans more toward spell power
  • Valor Bard Archer that want to get decent with bow+attacks
 
Last edited:

OlegRu

First Post
Reminder:

Starting with 10,16,14,10,10,16 is fine. Same goes for starting with bow as your main weapon.
By level 4 you should know if you increase cha or dex.
By level 8 you know better. By level 10 you can make an educated guess if you are using a bow or would rather have an attack spell or a great concentration based buff or debuff.
And best is: you can always switch between both builds. If you somehow end with 18 dex and 18 cha at level 8 you are not a lot behind as others might have taken a feat or two.
Also you never know what magic items fall into your hand or what other players do and what kind of adventures you are playing.
A valor bard can adept to anyithing and be a great addition to any party and you really need to work to make a bad valor bard.

These are good points... The see what's best as you go makes sense, I'm just worried that I might not see the value of certain things until higher levels.

I'm going to tag you in my reply to TwoSix as it hits most of these same topics, if you don't mind.
 

I think the thing is, a specialist archer (ranger/fighter/rogue) build can do silly damage. A valor bard can't come remotely close, and frankly there is usually something better they can be doing than shooting. IMO a valor bard is better going sword and board and trying a bit of off-tanking, a back row bard is better being a lore bard and use spells in battle.
 

It's 5e: bards are best at spellcasting.
So from an optimization point of view, forget the bow or use it for role-playing reasons - or in the lower levels to do a little more damage than with your cantrips.
It seems your main focus is the role-playing, so just do what you think fits the role. It's your game! ;)
 

These are good points... The see what's best as you go makes sense, I'm just worried that I might not see the value of certain things until higher levels.

I'm going to tag you in my reply to TwoSix as it hits most of these same topics, if you don't mind.

One Idea would be taking college of swords instead of college of valor.
I would not advise taking sharpshooter or warcaster. You will have a hand free to cast so it is not that important. You don´t really want to rely on taking the -5/+10 gamble.

With college of swords you will have:
- extra mobility (+10ft)
- a weapon as bardic focus
- medium armor as college of valor (thoug no shield)
- same extra attack as college of valor
- you can spend your bardic inspiration when you hit, doing 2 very useful things on top of doing extra damage (and one extra thing):
* push enemies back
* gain +dX to defense
(*deal damage to an enemy adjacent to yourself)

Those may not sound like a lot, but as an archer extra mobility can´t be rated high enough, especially when you can also push them back.
 

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