Greyhawk Elevator Pitch?

Parmandur · May 13, 2019

Nebulous said:
It is no different from Forgotten Realms, it is all generic fantasy. Add and remove and replace whatever you like, and if you're running a pregen module campaign it hardly matters, just the names of gods and cities change.

Well, sure: that's the pitch. Forgotten Reslms has a different spice profile (more Narnia & Tolkien, big dose of Hippy-Dippiness, less Medieval and more Reannisance), but the genericness is the selling point for tabletop RPG purposes.

Shiroiken · May 13, 2019

WeaponizedInk said:
...I've tried a couple times to get into Greyhawk, but as a setting it never really grabbed me. I am thinking that maybe it has to do with me not coming at it from the right angle. With Ghosts of the Saltmarsh out, I'd like to get excited about Greyhawk.

So far, I understand that Greyhawk was 1) the original DnD setting, 2) has a little bit of everything, 3) Somewhat low magic (though how you reconcile that with point 2 is interesting) and 4) has some science-fantasy elements kicking around the corners. Thats not enough to hang my hat on though, especially as I dont have nostalgia going for me.

Anyone willing to try a Greyhawk elevator pitch to sell the setting? What makes Greyhawk different and exciting?

A few of your assumptions are a bit incorrect, but to be honest, they're close enough. Others have mentioned a few, and I started writing my own corrections, but it all came out being a bit petty.

So, the big advantage to Greyhawk is that it's the easiest drop and play published setting, save for perhaps Mystara. Depending on the amount of information you want, you can pick up a book or two and get started. The two best sources would be the 1983 Boxed Set (1E) and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (3E), but the From the Ashes boxed set (2E) could be used depending on the kind of game you want to run. All of them pretty much provide an amount of information for the setting, with varying degrees of details (later editions are more detailed). The information is enough to give the DM ideas, but limited enough for the DM to fill in with their own ideas. It is the perfect balance between the work of making your own setting and the constrictions many other published settings place on the DM with existing canon.

The other huge advantage that Greyhawk has is the variety of regions for adventure. A Game of Thrones style game can be easily placed in the Great Kingdom (an empire crumbling in on itself). Vikings live in the far northeast, with 4 semi-allied factions. A game about defending the free people against a tyranical empire can be done in Nyrond and the Iron League holding off the Great Kingdom. Urban intrigue, with a massive sewer system can be found in the Free City of Greyhawk. A game about knights facing the forces of an evil god can be found in Furyondy, the Shield Lands, and Velona agains the Empire of Iuz. Political and economic rivalries between good nations can be found between the Nations of Furyondy and Nyrond. the Bright Desert and the Vast Swamp can provide adventure in harsh enviroments, as can the jungles of Armedo and Hepmonaland with its Incan-like savages. The Baklunish basin in the northwest provide arabian adventures, while the Wolf and Tiger Nomads provide barbarian culture adventure. Blackmoor, the Land of Black Ice, and the legendary City of the Gods to the far north provide arctic adventures, spiced with the strange. Piracy can be found from the Sea Barons and the Sea Princes. Pretty much every type of adventure and campaign can be found in the Flanaess (the area Greyhawk focuses on) EXCEPT for oriental adventures, which was originally worked on by Gygax, but never officially installed (Kara Tur was originally supposed to be on the other side of the world from the Flanaess, but TSR moved it to Realms instead).

If I had to put an actual downside to Greyhawk, it's the deities. In no edition do they do a sufficient job explaining why there are so many overlapping gods, nor explain the hodgepodge pantheon system laid out. If having clear religions is a big deal for you, this can be an issue.

Parmandur · May 13, 2019

Shiroiken said:
A few of your assumptions are a bit incorrect, but to be honest, they're close enough. Others have mentioned a few, and I started writing my own corrections, but it all came out being a bit petty.

So, the big advantage to Greyhawk is that it's the easiest drop and play published setting, save for perhaps Mystara. Depending on the amount of information you want, you can pick up a book or two and get started. The two best sources would be the 1983 Boxed Set (1E) and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (3E), but the From the Ashes boxed set (2E) could be used depending on the kind of game you want to run. All of them pretty much provide an amount of information for the setting, with varying degrees of details (later editions are more detailed). The information is enough to give the DM ideas, but limited enough for the DM to fill in with their own ideas. It is the perfect balance between the work of making your own setting and the constrictions many other published settings place on the DM with existing canon.

The other huge advantage that Greyhawk has is the variety of regions for adventure. A Game of Thrones style game can be easily placed in the Great Kingdom (an empire crumbling in on itself). Vikings live in the far northeast, with 4 semi-allied factions. A game about defending the free people against a tyranical empire can be done in Nyrond and the Iron League holding off the Great Kingdom. Urban intrigue, with a massive sewer system can be found in the Free City of Greyhawk. A game about knights facing the forces of an evil god can be found in Furyondy, the Shield Lands, and Velona agains the Empire of Iuz. Political and economic rivalries between good nations can be found between the Nations of Furyondy and Nyrond. the Bright Desert and the Vast Swamp can provide adventure in harsh enviroments, as can the jungles of Armedo and Hepmonaland with its Incan-like savages. The Baklunish basin in the northwest provide arabian adventures, while the Wolf and Tiger Nomads provide barbarian culture adventure. Blackmoor, the Land of Black Ice, and the legendary City of the Gods to the far north provide arctic adventures, spiced with the strange. Piracy can be found from the Sea Barons and the Sea Princes. Pretty much every type of adventure and campaign can be found in the Flanaess (the area Greyhawk focuses on) EXCEPT for oriental adventures, which was originally worked on by Gygax, but never officially installed (Kara Tur was originally supposed to be on the other side of the world from the Flanaess, but TSR moved it to Realms instead).

If I had to put an actual downside to Greyhawk, it's the deities. In no edition do they do a sufficient job explaining why there are so many overlapping gods, nor explain the hodgepodge pantheon system laid out. If having clear religions is a big deal for you, this can be an issue.

To the gods point, I think Gygax wanted to create something like the chaos of the Hellenistic Middle East, with mishmashes of different cultures floating around.

gyor · May 13, 2019

One thing people don't know is that Greyhawk is a lot smaller then FR, not just in terms lore, but actual physical size, so exploring the breadth of Oerth might be more managable.

See with each edition of D&D FR just gets well, bigger, sometimes a lot bigger.

You've got Faerun, which is bigger by itself I think then GH main continent, but then you have Kara Tur that dwarfs Faerun and real world Asia (I mean Kara Tur is freaking big). Then you have Zakhara and Maztica, Katashaka, Osse, Archrome, and that is just Toril, there is also Abeir which has Shyr and Laekrond convenients.

Then you have more planets like Glyph, Garden, and more.

You also have some big demiplanes like the Celestial Nadir, we are talking about demiplanes big enough to store nations.

Then you have mirror planes images of them all, the Shadowfell and Feywild for all of it (except demiplanes and outer planes). The Towers of Night planein 4e was the literally an afterlife that was the size of a planet.

Greyhawk is much smaller, so fewer regions to keep track of. Of course that is also itself down side.

gyor · May 13, 2019

Parmandur said:
To the gods point, I think Gygax wanted to create something like the chaos of the Hellenistic Middle East, with mishmashes of different cultures floating around.

Hellenistic era was a spiritual golden age that lead to Hermetism, Neoplatonism, and new forms of Buddhism, Astrology, Gnostism, Mystery Cults, and more.

You can absolutely see the influence of this era on D&D. If anyone asks you why Gods like Zeus and Hephaestus have what seem like Christian Angels in D&D it goes all the way back to the Chaldean Oracles and later Neoplatonism.

Yeah Olympian Angels predates Christian Angels, so D&D angels serving a Polythiestic Pantheon makes sense.

FRs main Pantheon is very Hellenistic as well as it's the result of a bunch of older pantheons merging, along with new members joining.

Mulhorand is almost more Ptolemy in style then pure Egyptian, you can really see the Greek influences on it's otherwise Egyptian Pantheon.

Parmandur · May 13, 2019

gyor said:
Hellenistic era was a spiritual golden age that lead to Hermetism, Neoplatonism, and new forms of Buddhism, Astrology, Gnostism, Mystery Cults, and more.

You can absolutely see the influence of this era on D&D. If anyone asks you why Gods like Zeus and Hephaestus have what seem like Christian Angels in D&D it goes all the way back to the Chaldean Oracles and later Neoplatonism.

Yeah Olympian Angels predates Christian Angels, so D&D angels serving a Polythiestic Pantheon makes sense.

FRs main Pantheon is very Hellenistic as well as it's the result of a bunch of older pantheons merging, along with new members joining.

Mulhorand is almost more Ptolemy in style then pure Egyptian, you can really see the Greek influences on it's otherwise Egyptian Pantheon.

Separated substances cannot be said to "precede" or be "preceded" strictly speaking.

What I was referring to was how you can have the Oerdian, Flan, Suel, and Balkunish gods with overlapping and contradictory portfolios, as with Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, etc. deities in the Middle East after Alexander mixed everything up.

Paul Farquhar · May 13, 2019

Azzy said:
Do you want a secret society of monks and assassins dedicated to world conquest and racial domination? Or a imprisoned, insane god that wants to destroy all of reality? A once great kingdom that has been sundered under the rule of a mad king and a coalition of its once vassal states dedicated to mutual defence and opposition of the kingdom's oppressive and expansionist rule? Pirate kingdoms? A hald-demon demigon that rule from a throne of bones that threatens the borders of goodly nations?

Isn't that a description of every D&D setting ever?

Shiroiken · May 13, 2019

Parmandur said:
What I was referring to was how you can have the Oerdian, Flan, Suel, and Balkunish gods with overlapping and contradictory portfolios, as with Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, etc. deities in the Middle East after Alexander mixed everything up.

I could have gotten this had he kept it strictly to ethnic deities, but then he added the "Common Pantheon," which throws things for a complete loop. One of the things I've done for my own campaign is to try and figure out which pantheon each Common deity came from, then have them simply be part of that pantheon, but their worship has spread greatly across the various ethnicity/races. This helps to deal with potential in-pantheon overlap (mostly Ehlonna and Obad-Hai). Given the simple to use nature of Greyhawk, I found this to be a bit annoying, even though I'd guess that most people wouldn't even give it a second thought.

Azzy · May 13, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
Isn't that a description of every D&D setting ever?

No.

gyor · May 13, 2019

Shiroiken said:
I could have gotten this had he kept it strictly to ethnic deities, but then he added the "Common Pantheon," which throws things for a complete loop. One of the things I've done for my own campaign is to try and figure out which pantheon each Common deity came from, then have them simply be part of that pantheon, but their worship has spread greatly across the various ethnicity/races. This helps to deal with potential in-pantheon overlap (mostly Ehlonna and Obad-Hai). Given the simple to use nature of Greyhawk, I found this to be a bit annoying, even though I'd guess that most people wouldn't even give it a second thought.

That isn't that different from the Faerun Pantheon. The Telfric, Netherese, Jhamdaath, and a few other Pantheons came together, merging as Faeun became more Globalized. Some Gods died, some Gods merged, some Gods like Gargos got demoted to demigod.

Then in 4e, all the Pantheons merged, the surviving racial deities joined the FR Pantheon or died and all Mulhorandi deities except Bastet disappeared.

That then changed with 5e and the racial and Mulhorand and Unther Pantheons returned, but the legacy is in FR some racial deities now have more human worshippers.

Oh and unique to FR the Elven Pantheon absorbed and merged with the Yuirwood Pantheon.

Greyhawk Elevator Pitch?

Parmandur

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Shiroiken

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Parmandur

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gyor

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gyor

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Parmandur

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Paul Farquhar

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Shiroiken

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Azzy

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gyor

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