3e Conversions

jester47

First Post
Vuron said:
Actually a further clarification might be in order, AFAIK at the current time you cannot even reference a non SRD term, monster, feat, etc in a 3rd party book. I think this issue came up concerning content from the new asgard. I think the safest policy from a legal standpoint is to make new monsters ,feats, PrCs etc that exclusively mention SRD complian materials. That means do not reference MoF or S&F or FRCS at all. It seems that to do so violates the newer interpretations of the OGL and would definitely place your product in breach of the licensing terms and those culpable for financial losses inflicted on WotC IP.

I agree with you. I think that is what I am saying. OGL stuff can only be stuff in the SRD and stuff you make up. And it has always been that way. However, people have always misunderstood it.

But my argument is that notes on conversions can give academic references (that is page number and book where x can be found) without a problem. It is when you convert the phantom spider from "shattered circle" and you post the new stats that you should have to say "this monster is WotCs when they publish their version, use it." I think this is what their conversion document was meant to cover but the author is confused with the OGL, ESDs, and conversion notes.

What they need to understand:

Conversions have very littke to do with ESDs.
The OGL was never part of the conversion note movement.

What we need to understand:

WotC is the only one that can distribute new copies of old out of print modules, and the only ones that can distribute thier stuf fin electronic form.
We cannot convert a monster and put it in our OGL products saying "this is a monster converted from xyz module," we have to make our own monsters if they are not in the SRD.

That is all they are saying. I have stated my case that the document needs to be rewritten elsewhere.

Aaron Webb
Seattle WA
 

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RyanD

Adventurer
Re: Not deadly clear, rewrite the document.

jester47 said:
Now about the document. The document is badly written. It looks to me in my professional opinion that the document was not in its final stages when it was released.

I have a unique perspective on the document.

I wrote much of it (though the final version is mostly a paraphrasing of a more detailed license text submitted in draft form to WotC, and doesn't represent my verbatim text).

Here's the deal, in a nutshell.

WotC has the ESD program in place, making a whole bunch of 1E/2E stuff easily available on the net. They know that there are people out there who want to use that content in 3E games. Furthermore, there's been an active conversion community almost since The Big Announcement at GenCon in 1999 (and long before the thing known as an "ESD" even existed). Most of that work was done in good faith by people who just enjoy playing D&D and want to spread the love, and represents an honest effort to make a "conversion" rather than rewrite a product or unfairly profit from WotC's work.

However, there have been an increasing number of people who don't understand that the conversions are not authorized and aren't really legal; they exist in a quasi-legal state based on informal understandings between various WotC employees (and ex-employees) and a handful of proactive web site administrators.

Those people have started to become a problem. The most egregious problems are people who have solicited, or announced that they indend to solicit, conversions of whole products (or parts of products like monsters, magic items & spells) to distributors as commercial products. Nobody at WotC has the time or the resources to try to educate these people about how copyright and trademarks work. Furthermore, there's a whole community of publishers who are using the OGL and the d20 license correctly who could be harmed inadvertantly if the framework those licenses create is jeopardized by the actions of a few rogue publishers.

It's pretty hard for someone who doesn't take the time to read up on the topic to understand the difference between the "licensed" content in the SRD, and the "unlicensed" content in a collection of monsters, spells, magic items, etc. on a web site which appear to be "official". The chances that some of that "unlicensed" content will get into a commercial product have recently increased substantially.

There's also been a subtle shift in the way that the conversions are handled on-line too. Originally, Eric's web site was totally non-profit. That has changed. Under the current management, the site sells advertising and operates a retail division. The original "deal" was that conversions could be offered in a "not for profit" environment - and that's no longer the environment that the largest conversion library is hosted on. WotC feels (rightfully, in my opinion), that if anyone is going to make money off of D&D, it should be WotC.

It would be great if there was a legal way for a 3rd party to create a conversion of those old products and let other people download that conversion. Starting from that premise, WotC evolved a basic policy that said "let 'em". (Which, if you think about it, is a pretty amazing thing for a company in the business of publishing games to do.) They took a couple of stabs at writing a policy, and eventually someone asked me to take a look at what they'd done. Instead of sending them back a bunch of comments, I just wrote them a short license they could use or alter as they saw fit. They did alter it in places, but most of the legalese I suggested is retained in the final document.

The objective, as I saw it, was to formally codify how to do a conversion. The issues to resolve were:

1) Where is the original source material going to be stored and to what extent can it appear in the conversion?

2) How are the issues of trademark and copyright handled, specifically how will they interact with the OGL?

3) What are the specific agreements between WotC and the person doing the conversion?

My answers to WotC (i.e., my opinions as expressed in the license text itself)

1) The ESD needs to stay on the WotC site. That means that the conversion shouldn't be a complete product; it should be a companion to the ESD and require the ESD for use.

Reasons: It retains the value WotC owns in the ESD program. It also ensures that the conversions act as free advertising for that program; driving people to the ESD system who might not otherwise know that it existed. It also removes a rat's nest of issues of copyright and trademark usage.

2) The agreement licenses the use of the copyrights and trademarks in the ESDs to you formally, and clearly identifies them as Product Identity. Thus, the ESD agreement is compatible with the OGL, and allows the OGL itself to be the enabling license for the whole conversion.

Reasons: Better by far than writing another license for the use of game materials. The OGL may be a bit prickly, but there's a huge number of resources available to help anyone understand it who needs help. This "lightweight" approach to the copyright/trademark issue is much easier on everyone than a whole new license.

3) The person doing the conversion agrees that the copyrights and trademarks in the original ESD are owned by WotC. They agree not to distribute the whole ESD itself. They also agree to assert WotC's ownership to the copyrights and trademarks explicitly. Finally, they agree to use the OGL as the binding license for the converted content.

WotC agrees to let them. Specifically, WotC agrees to let people use it's copyights and trademarks without prior approval, and without cost. Which is a pretty big deal, even if we've all gotten used to the old "don't ask, don't tell" policy that started the whole conversion movement in the first place. A formal deal that says you don't have to ask permission, and you don't have to pay is a damn sight better than an informal agreement to look the other way while copyright and trademark infringement is carried out. [and frankly, I'm astonished that WotC is going to allow it.]

> First, it needs to define its vocabulary.

I really don't agree. Is anyone confused as to what an "ESD" is? Or the "OGL"?

> Second, it needs to look at how people make conversions. It does not address this.

The policy doesn't address it, because it's not important. The policy says "you can convert the ESD", it doesn't try to tell you how to do the conversion. Specifically, the agreement says "All you are authorized to convert to 3E are the mechanics themselves". If all you're converting are the mechanics, how many ways are there to do so? Is there any reason to have detailed instructions?

> There is an obvious confusion between Jim Butler's ESD program and his ideas on making conversions.

Jim, like myself, doesn't work for WotC anymore. Jim happens to have evolved a policy with my prior approval, when we both worked at WotC, which could be loosely described as "unlimited conversion without oversight", with the only significant requirement being that the conversions themselves could not be used in a for-profit manner.

That policy was useful and it served everyone well. It has become less useful, and it has started to cause problems.

WotC has now issued a formal policy which is more detailed. It doesn't matter what the prior policy was, all that matters is what the current policy is.

I think I can clarify a few issues which might help. These "clarifications" are of course, informal, and don't represent any kind of offical statement. However, I'm in a unique position to understand how the OGL works, how the ESD policy works, and how they both fit together, so hopefully my thoughts will be helpful.

Q: How do we handle monsters in ESD products that aren't in the SRD?

A: You convert 'em as you see fit. WotC asserts ownership to the "Product Identity" of all proper nouns in the ESDs, and that includes the monster names. Your converted stat block is just Open Game Content, like you'd see in any OGL licensed work. The "name" of the monster remains WotC's exclusive property and isn't OGC.

Q: What if my conversion looks just like a conversion in another WotC product like "Monsters of Faerun"?

A: All OGC is derived from the System Reference Document. If you happen to put the peices together in the same order that WotC did in another product, so much the better.

Q: What if I want to use content such as a feat, skill, spell, magic item, or other game element from a non-OGL source, like "Sword & Fist", or the "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting"?

A: Either wait until that material is included in the SRD, or re-write the material you want to use in your own words, thus avoiding WotC's copyright on the specific expression. You've already got the right (via the OGL and the SRD) to use the game mechanics - even if your "new" Feat and the Feat you're duplicating have the exact same mechanical expression, you are not violating WotC's copyright unless you also use their actual wording. You should change the proper name of your "re-written" game element too, just for safety's sake. If you need to include such content in your conversion in order to make the stat blocks based on those additions make sense, that's totally OK, because the ESD policy says:

"You may add any additional mechanical information necessary to run the encounter in a 3E game, aside from the stat block"

Q: Exactly what products are covered by the ESD policy?

A: 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D materials available for public download as ESD's on WotC's web site.

Q: What if the product I want to convert isn't an ESD yet?

A: The policy was written for ESD conversions. Some of the text which is "wrapped" around the policy isn't very clear about that, but all the "legalese" in the policy itself is. If WotC wants to expand the policy to include non-ESD products, it would be fairly easy to do so. If this is something that matters to you, I'd write to them and ask them to either extend the ESD policy, or draft a sibling handling non-ESD content.

Q: Could WotC take my conversion, and then use it without paying me anything?

A: Yes.

That's the nature of Open Gaming. WotC gives you a bunch of free stuff (the SRD, for example), and you do interesting things with it. In return, you agree to give WotC (and every other person on the planet) the same courtesy in return.

If you think you're good enough to be a professional game designer, and you want to earn a living at the trade, withold your conversion from the public and pitch it to WotC as a real product. Who knows? Perhaps they'll buy your work!

On the other hand, if you want to distribute a conversion to a WotC product without approvals and without any form of payment, it is totally reasonable for WotC to have the right to take that conversion and use it as it sees fit, provided that proper credit is given (as required by the OGL, to which WotC, like you, would be bound in this particular situation).

Q: What should happen to the existing library of conversions?

A: My opinion is that WotC should give Morrus a deadline of say, six months, to review the content in the existing archive, and remove those works which cannot be modified to comply with the new policy, and adapt the remaining content so that it does so. Morrus in turn could rely on a trusted group to ensure that the content in the archive does in fact comply with the OGL and the ESD policy (assuming he doesn't want to do that work himself).

It would also be a good idea for WotC to give Morrus a separate agreement that stipulates that in the event that a problem is uncovered that Morrus will be given some reasonable amount of time to fix it, and, failing a fix, remove the offending work with no other repurcussions. That would ensure that Morrus' liability is limited and that he could not find himself facing a serious problem based on the actions of some 3rd party converter.

Implementing those suggestions requires a dialog between Morrus and WotC, which I hope (based on seeing two messages already from the key people) is already underway.

I hope that this has been helpful.

Sincerely,

Ryan S. Dancey
CEO, OrganizedPlay
{and big fan of conversions}
 

Blacksad

Explorer
Re: Re: Not deadly clear, rewrite the document.

RyanD said:

There's also been a subtle shift in the way that the conversions are handled on-line too. Originally, Eric's web site was totally non-profit. That has changed. Under the current management, the site sells advertising and operates a retail division. The original "deal" was that conversions could be offered in a "not for profit" environment - and that's no longer the environment that the largest conversion library is hosted on. WotC feels (rightfully, in my opinion), that if anyone is going to make money off of D&D, it should be WotC.

IIRC Eric website had advertising banners, special links to amazon.com (with money if someone bought a product through that link).

I do not see a big difference with enworld here, someone enlights me please.

The only difference is natural d20 press, wich is a separate entity hosted on the website (like jagged entertainment games).

And isn't it possible that enworld feature a ESD review section, wich includes advice in chosing product to use the ESD in 3rd edition, something like:

"if you want to replace the bullywug in this adventure, the suggestion is to use the cezgsdg creatures by someone available here"

And why don't WotC host such a conversion library???
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Re: Re: Re: Not deadly clear, rewrite the document.

Blacksad said:


IIRC Eric website had advertising banners, special links to amazon.com (with money if someone bought a product through that link).

I do not see a big difference with enworld here, someone enlights me please.

I agree - contrary to popular belief, EN World does not make a profit. All the ads and the RPGShop deal (which brings in a pittance) are just fundraising mechanisms for paying for server costs etc. Exactly the same as hosting a site on a network with banners (such as the Gamespy banners on Eric's old site). The difference is that I actually do the work myself (partly through a desire not to see "Aerosol Pheremones!" and horrible pop-up ads all over my site) rather than allowing a semi-anonymous hosting company to do so.

That said, I understand that the financial aspect of supporting the site is more "visible" than it used to be, and that could make a difference.

Anyway - I don't have a problem with the policy itself; it'sjust the practicallity of implementing it. However, I have asked AV for the following (I don't expect to get all of it, but anything is better than nothing). This is a copy of part of an email I sent AV:

1) A stipulated time period during which current conversions could remain available pending editing. I'd suggest 4-6 months, after which all existing conversions would be expected to comply fully with the policy. That way, I can allocate the task to a small group of volunteers. I imagine that I will create a template which all conversion would need to adhere to.

2) A stipulated 'cure' period for bad files - not much, say 2 weeks? I'd hate to be out of town or be having email trouble should you (or anybody) ask me to fix a file.

3) A 'companion' policy referring specifically to non ESD conversions.

4) [this one is asking for quite a lot, so I'll fully understand if you don't have the time] - I'd like to put together a FAQ on what can/can't be done with conversions and how they shold be approached (e.g. "What if I want to convert a monster from a 1E module which has consequently appeared in Monsters of Faerun?" and so on). It'd be great if you (or someone at WotC) could provide specific answers/guidelines to a list of common questions. I'd be more than happy to post the FAQ as an unofficial guide rather than a legal document of any kind.

I'll let everyone know what he says. I think it'll all work out OK - WotC so far have been pretty reasonable and helpful with the issue. :)
 

qstor

Adventurer
what I dont understand is why if you are converting something with wemics or bullywugs you can't just say Bullywugs (2) Monsters of Faerun p. 4 (WOTC copyright 2001) (Or whatever page they are on)

This is not any infringment on WOTC. Hey in fact you need the book to get the stats for the bullywug. I am a lawyer in fact...but I do juvenile work. I dont know squat about copyrights. But that I said above makes sense to me. Its like when You are writing a paper or a book.

Mike
 

smetzger

Explorer
qstor said:
what I dont understand is why if you are converting something with wemics or bullywugs you can't just say Bullywugs (2) Monsters of Faerun p. 4 (WOTC copyright 2001) (Or whatever page they are on)

This is not any infringment on WOTC. Hey in fact you need the book to get the stats for the bullywug. I am a lawyer in fact...but I do juvenile work. I dont know squat about copyrights. But that I said above makes sense to me. Its like when You are writing a paper or a book.

Mike

In general this is true. However, if you chose to publish under the OGL or d20 license you agree to further restrictions and one of those is exactly what WOTC products you are allowed to reference.
 

maddman75

First Post
Grazzt said:
Cergorach is correct about using the monsters. Regardless of where the monster appeared in 1e/2e, if it appears in a non-SRD 3e product, you cannot use it. Now- you can convert and do your own version, but that is about it.

For example, if I were designing an adventure that used bullywugs, perytons, and wemics....I would have to do my own conversion of that monster and couldnt even come close to touching the current 3e version (which appears in the Monsters of Faerun book).
Now- I am not sure if my version of said monsters could even be close to the official 3e version. It is my understanding that they cannot.

It might be one of those things where it has to be totally different in abilities and description. Also- I believe bullywug is IP (and not from mythology) so it would be best to avoid them completely.

If ya really wanted to use them for example, it would be best to make them like their 1e/2e counterpart and rename them to something else. Or best just to avoid them completely.

Regarding the SRD, I can see WotC releasing the Monsters of Faerun (well most of it anyway) as SRD, but not the actual FR stuff. So- perhaps one day we can use bullywugs legally without stepping on toes.

Of course, I am not a lawyer, so I might not know what the hell I am talking about either. :D

I believe you would get away with "clean room" conversion, much like how Compaq made the first PC clone. They knew what the PC was and how it had to interact with software. They even had the specs, but weren't allowed to copy the hardware due to copyright law.

So they got a bunch of engineers and told them what they needed it to do. They did NOT show them the specs, however. The engineers had to reimplement everything from scratch.

So, get someone to do the conversions who has never read Monsters of Faerun. Preferably release them as Open game content. Then there would be an official version and a free version. They might be very similar or they could be very different, as the designer of the free version did not refer to or even read beforehand the official version.
 

smetzger

Explorer
Re: Re: Not deadly clear, rewrite the document.

RyanD said:


I have a unique perspective on the document.

I wrote much of it (though the final version is mostly a paraphrasing of a more detailed license text submitted in draft form to WotC, and doesn't represent my verbatim text).

Well I hope they re-write the existing document before its debut on the web page. Its full of holes.

What about Basic D&D? I believe there are even some Basic D&D ESDs available now.

Is should be a "Conversion" policy that mentions how to deal with ESDs. I did all of my conversions from original material. Nothing to do with ESDs.

The document also is written from a standpoint of adventures (module in my day). It gives an example related to an adventure conversion. Adventure conversion is probably the easiest one to comply with the rules. It should also address Monsters conversions and magic items and spells. It seems WOTC is really more concerned about CC and not so much about someone who converts an adventure, yet they address the adventure issue specifically.

Now lets take the Bullywug thing. U2, has an encounter with Bullywugs. A converter would not be able to reference MoF and they would not be able to rename the creature. But one could come up with stats of Bullywigs themselves. Kind of silly.

The OGL restriction of including the license agreement embedded in every file. The OGF site doesn't even comply with this.

The "recently" statement should be taken out. It doesn't make sense now (my A2 conversion was posted before the MM came out). And a year from now it will make less sense.
 

Psion

Adventurer
maddman75 said:
So, get someone to do the conversions who has never read Monsters of Faerun. Preferably release them as Open game content. Then there would be an official version and a free version. They might be very similar or they could be very different, as the designer of the free version did not refer to or even read beforehand the official version.

I did a conversion of the helmed horror before MOF came out when doing my Undermountain conversion.

And yes, it is very different. The MOF helmed horror is a living terror in comparison to my conversion. (13 HD? Magic weapons? Sheesh!)
 

Vuron

First Post
I think Ryan's statements and clarifications indicate that ESD materials (including all 1e and 2e products) are subject to this conversion policy and that for all intents and purposes WotC intends to maintain it's IP concerning them. Furthermore conversions of any sort have always been quasi-legal and WotC reserves the right at any point in time to disallow conversions to be publically distributed.

In response to the clean room idea I strongly suggest that per Ryan's clarifications WotC takes the legal standpoint that works that derive from ESD materials are also solely owned by WotC. That means you can have something that resembles a bullywug but cannot have the same name as the bullywug.

Whether or not WotC's conversion policy would stand up in court is entirely debatable but currently I think that you risk liability if you use any ESD or Non SRD materials in a publication. Furthermore you have no exclusive right to materials derived from the SRD, it seems that you better not assume that WotC cannot use you PrCs and feats freely in thier own publications.

While the suggestions that one could reference non SRD materials and be fine would in theory work in regards to fair use laws (I'm not sure about this but needless to say fair use of copyrights extends only to a very limited number of copies) or perhaps academic use, ie a journal might be able to reference the non SRD rules in a manner like "For example the divine fury feat or the Tacoman PrC is an affront to Christian Theology/Taco lovers, blah blah blah."

What should be said that in order to best stay within the bounds of the OGL and ESD licensing agreements one should limit any publications meant for sale or distribution to materials clearly defined in the SRD or OGC content from another company.
 

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