How much can Spot, uh, spot?

IMO, many DMs allow too much information from a Spot check, where it would instead be appropriate to either limit the information or require another skill entirely.

Here's a f'r'instance:

There's a narrow stone bridge, 10' wide and 50' long, over a river rushing below. There is a simple, and typically Elven in construction, guardhouse at either end of the bridge. The PCs know the road over the bridge leads into an ancient wood populated by the elves of a friendly kingdom. They're trying to reach that kingdom.

What the PCs don't know is that a pair of unusually bright ogres have killed all but two elven spearguards -- leaving one for each guardhouse -- and are charging a selective toll for passage over the bridge. (I.e., they don't charge people that look too tough.) The ogres stay hidden in the guardhouses until their presence is necessary. They've cowed the remaining guards into "playacting" that all is well. They've taken the guards' weapons, but left them their armor. The ogres have also removed the solid, but ornate, railing that used to make the bridge safer. (They figure it's give them a huge advantage in a fight on the bridge.)

So here come the PCs, up to the elven guard. What rolls should be asked for, to notice what?

Most DMs (in my experience) would call for immediate Spot rolls (or make them secretly himself) to notice, e.g., the elf sweating (do elves sweat?), the elf being without weapons, the ogre peeking out of the guardhouse, and the missing bridge railings.

I think that's way too generous. I do agree that Spot is a passive skill (as opposed to Search, e.g., which is active), but that's exactly why I think its use needs to be more restricted than most people play it. I think most "not completely obvious" stuff should depend on a combination of player actions and more active skills.

So how would I do the above?

As the party approached the guardhouse, if they were specifically being cautious I would give them a Spot check to notice the peeking ogre. I'd DM the elf as being a little nervous -- without hamming it up -- and if a player asks I'd allow a Sense Motive roll to figure out something was up. If a player speaks Elven to the guard, prompting a reply in Elven, I'd allow a Listen check to catch that the guard is offering a subtle warning, and is frightened. I'd allow a martial PC or an elf to notice (with a Spot) check, the lack of weapons. If they specifically looked over the guardhouse (from outside), I'd allow a Search check. Same for the bridge, to notice the missing railing. (I'd also allow an appropriate Knowledge check.)

What do people think? Am I crippling Spot? Making the other skills too valuable? Relying too much on PC backgrounds and actions? Or am I right that Spot is often way overused?

wilder_jw said:

So here come the PCs, up to the elven guard. What rolls should be asked for, to notice what?

What do people think? Am I crippling Spot? Making the other skills too valuable? Relying too much on PC backgrounds and actions? Or am I right that Spot is often way overused?

Click to expand...

I does seem like that spot is used for a whole lot of stuff, that it really isn't even designed for. Anyway, I would agree that a spot check is called for in this sort of a situation. The DC would be way up, though, and even if the characters make that first Sense Motive check, and notice that there's something wrong, the enemy isn't supposed to be acting stupid. I think that using different skills to do different things is a good idea. And this way even a rogue with a high int-score can't actually do everything. Of course this sort of thinking limits the abilities of non-social characters. Those with bluff, diplomacy and sense motive are going to shine in this sort of encounters (at least at the beginning), while the fighters stand around wondering why their friend is talking to a boring bridge guard?

On the other hand roleplaying is what this is all about. If the players can roleplay their characters into a situation where their suspicious natures are sounding alarm bells, and the enemy is getting nervours, then the situation could be handled without a single dice roll before the actual combat scene.

Personally I like the middle ground between these two extremes. I couple of high DC spot checks to start things off. If the characters engage in conversation with the guards, then they get their sense motive checks. During the conversation the guard might be attempting to drop hints of the actual situation that the characters are facing, and other little things can tip the players off.

It takes a bit of imagination on the DM's part, but I think its a whole lot more interesting that just throwing a few dice around, and going into combat rounds.

You can't have detailed rules to cover all these types of situations. There are too many possibilities to cover with the rules in anything but a very vague fashion.

How I'd handle it:

As the PCs approached the bridge, I'd check my list of prerolled d20s (to avoid the players knowing something was up because I rolled some dice) to determine if the PCs spot anything unusual. I'd set different DCs and based upon how difficult it would be to see something.

I *always* make spot checks as if they were going to be done at 0'. If the PC makes this roll, I figure out how much he made it by. Then I use that information to figure out how far away the PC could be and still make the check. If they get within that range, they see the thing to be spotted.

These spot rolls would cover anything, that if seen, would be an obvious indication that something was not quite right. Some examples: The blood on the bridge where the ogres killed the other elves, the ogre peeking from the gatehouse, a dead elf guardsman washed up down river, etc ...

I'd also put in listen checks using the same methods.

As the PCs approached the elves, I'd role play a conversation. If it lasts more than a few moments, I'd use my list of d20 rolls again for sense motive checks for anyone present at the conversation (versus a bluff from the elves). A successful check would tell the PCs that the elves are acting nervous. A very successful check would indicate that the elves are nervous and that they are scared of something in the gate house.

I agree with you about Spot being used too often to reveal too much info...but I think you've got a good handle on it. That's about how I'd run it...although I'd want the fight on the bridge to occur and probably have the ogres get cocky.

The spot checks in your scenario all seemed appropriate to me.

I would figure that, in this instance, spot would be useful for several things:

1. Noticing that the guardrail had been removed recently. (This would, at the very least, have left empty postholes or bolts on the bridge if it were removed carefully--and, given ogres' typical carelessness, might have left small stumps of railing where they broke or hacked it off).

2. To notice the ogres peering at them from inside the guardhouses. This would probably be a rather difficult spot check but it would be conceivable.

3. Possibly--to notice bloodstains or signs of a recent conflict when the guards were killed--if that was recent.

4. Again, possibly--to notice signs of injury on the gate-guards. Alternatively, I might just include that in the description. "A tall elf wearing a somewhat battered suit of scale mail and sporting a deep cut over his left eye steps out into the causeway...."

Things I wouldn't use the spot check for:

Noticing that the guards are nervous (or noticing signs of nervousness). That's what sense motive is for.

Noticing that the guards are unarmed. I think I'd include that in the description as well.

Listen checks might well be appropriate as well to hear the ogres shifting position inside the guardhouse.

Why all the skill checks without the PCs' asking anything?

Well, D&D is a game of shared illusion. Players depend upon the DM to tell them what their characters see and have to interact with the world based upon that window. In this situation, there are clearly some things that might make characters nervous. If the DM doesn't describe them without prompting from the players, he encourages the players to constantly prompt him--even in situations where caution is not warranted--because they will know that they cannot tell the difference between a dangerous, hinky, situation and a normal one based upon the DM's descriptions. That slows down the game a lot. It would also have the effect of transferring all caution from the characters onto the players. If the 15th level ranger is oblivious to his surroundings unless his player asks all the specific questions ("Is there anything unusual about the bridge? Are the guards armed? Do they look nervous? Can I catch a glimpse of anything inside the guardhouse" etc), there is less in-game difference between the 15th level fighter with no ranks in spot whose player knows what questions to ask and the 15th level ranger with maxed spot whose player doesn't know the right questions. The way to get information that the character would notice is then not to have the right skills but to ask the DM the right questions. (It's the same way with Sense Motive and asking something like "are the elves sweating too much for the temperature and their gear?" If you let that question work, the player interprets the result with his sense motive skill instead of letting the character interpret the events with his sense motive skill).

I think you're going a little overboard myself... only allowing a spot roll to determine the guards are unarmed for martial NPCs? I'd expect that to be a DC 5 or so check for any character, if you didn't do as suggested and include it in the description. As situations in a medieval type world go, guards without weapons stick right out like a sore thumb.

Ogres peeking out of huts might be spottable, the railing on the bridge missing probably wouldn't be unless the players wanted a closer look, any blood stains around probably would be, etc

Any skill thats high enough should be capable of doing amazing things.

I'd give a sense motive to see that the elf was nervous, a spot for the ogres, and tell them that the elves had no weapon, listen has "Hear people talking dc 0" so seeing what someone is wearing or holds (except small stuff like coins and pencils etc) should also be DC 0.