What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?

buzz said:

I'm with Hong on this one.

Anyway, enough with deifnitions... What I'd really like to know is why "low magic" and "grim & gritty" seem to be such a holy grail among gamers. It may not be as common here, but over at RPG.net, these terms come up all the time--granted, embracing "low n' gritty" seems to go part-and-parcel with the general "hat of d02" over there.

Still, there seems to be this kind of mania, this covetous twinkle gamers get in their eye when it's mentioned that a game is "grim" and "low magic."

How come?

Click to expand...

I think many gamers (me included) like the fact that Grim and Gritty and LOw Magic games require the players to use their own abilities and cunning and not resolve problems with a simple spell or magic items

Grim N Gritty world design is also easier than a well thought out D&D world-- I am not talking about a generic D&D world (its uh like a ren faire with dragons) but a world that makes sense. Given the relative power of some Wyrms they could raise whole cities. A decent high level adventuring party can kill small towns

At very high or epic levels charcters are supermen (err ok Superbeings) and untouchable except by massive armies, uber monsters or other supers

In regular D&D Magic spells like Raise Dead,Create Food and Water, Plant Growth and even Cure Light Wounds can change the world in ways (keep in mind that a Cure Light can take a commoner from Near Death to Hale and Hearty in a day) change the world in ways that boggle the mind

Low Magic allows DM's to say "Ok this is like Imperial Rome or Medieval France or whatever" and minimize the impact of magic. Magic becomes wonderous and not an alternate technology.

As for Grim and Gritty well D&D combat is very escalatory (i.e Today Orcs Tommorow Gnoll Next Month Great Wyrm) and a lot of G&G DM's want Orcs to be threatening and any level without making Orc Superheros or Big Monsters (See above).

Combat in D&D is deadly at matched levels but if there is a level dichotomy D&D comabt is a massacre (standard military unit as per the DMG is mostly 1st level warriors -- if they meet a party of Adventurers of 9th level or a big monster they die -- easy as that)

GNG allows DM"s to make monsters much scarrier (a troll is terrifying under GNG) and regular encounters more tense

When they are combined it pushes the focus of the campaign away from combat and more to interaction of a different sorts (stealth, intrigue, social whatever)

Before anybody blows a gasket I know not all D&D games are mostly combat.
But IMO a lot of GNG DM's and players have been stung with hackfest games they didn't enjoy and want to use rules reinforcment to cut back on combat

The rule in GNG is "if you want to live a long time avoid combat"

This is not satisfactory to a lot of gamers but tastes very

As for myself I prefer Grim and Gritty -- but YMMV

Rather than saying "low magic sucks just because" I think a more useful discussion would be how to make low magic, grim and gritty d20 games work.

I've tried a few things, and I like all of the following:

• Damage Conversion from Unearthed Arcana is very helpful in keeping PCs from dying if they really like to get into the thick of combat.
• Lowered massive damage threshold is complemented by making a failed save result in instant -1 HP rather than instant death. You still take the PCs out, but he's got a chance to stabilize and live to fight another day.
• Treat Injury from d20 Modern, especially with feats like Surgery, etc. to complement it, help to speed up healing without requiring magic. Some kind of herblore that works to speed up healing times would also be appropriate without "breaking genre" and simply being magic healing.
• As Gothmog mentioned, give the PCs obvious outs -- they can navigate some encounters without actually fighting, which only helps to conserve party resources for the fights that really matter. It's just as tense to try and sneak through some gauntlet, or negotiate your way out of a tight spot as it is to pull out your sword and start chopping. Retreat should normally be an option as well; nobody wants to be stuck in a hopeless fight.
• You have to be really careful about monsters, and essentially take CRs with a grain of salt. More like a big bag of rock salt; the kind they throw on roads to melt the ice. Simple abilities like incorporeality (to use one example) can make a "low challenge" opponent become nigh invincible without magic missile, magic weapons, etc. One way to handle this is limited use magic as well, although make it so the PCs have to make tough choices and not burn up those limited uses before they really need them.
• Keep an eye on your players; if they're feeling put upon, they won't enjoy themselves as much. But most of this is advice that applies for both "standard" and "money haul" campaigns as well, really.

*Moderator hat, activate!*

Ok, folks, I'm officially tired of the word "troll" in this thread. If you disagree with someone, fine, talk about that, but let's not go down that road of trying to guess the intent behind someone's incomprehensible (to you) point of view. Talk about what you think but don't get blamey, snarky, etc. Thanks!

Saeviomagy said:

To me
"Low magic" usually means "I hate handing out magical items, so I removed them, inadvertantly making anyone who plays a wizard or cleric significantly more powerful than the rest of the party, but that's ok, because I cover it by saying that wizards and clerics are uncommon. Even though there's one of each in every party."

"Grim and gritty" usually means "I love save vs death mechanics and I hate hitpoints. I've further devalued the fighters of the party by removing any staying power they have."

Simply put - if someone uses either of these phrases to describe their campaign, it means that they didn't really think about the campaign world beyond their own personal DMing preferences.

Click to expand...

Really? I know you're just trying to be insulting but I'm, well, insulted. I'm currently working on my own brand new homebrew world, which will be both low magic and a little more "grim." These are not clumsy mechanics that I'm just throwing into my campaign without thought of consequence. I've been playing 3.0/3.5 since it was released at GenCon 2004. My current campaign has been going almost monthly for almost four years.

I really like D&D, but I need a change. I'm currently deeply engrossed in book three of George Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire", and these books have indeed been an inspiration for the "feel" I'm trying to capture. I want to facilitation a RPG experiance that is a little more focused on trying to find non combat solutions to problems, and dealing with the intrigue and backstabbing that is only possible when there are so such things as Speak with Dead.

In short, I want this new campaign to have PCs that behave less like super heroes and more like literary characters. Tough, powerful, but still mortal. I want PCs to rely on their own abilities and not on magic items. I want to keep the challenging aspects of low level adventuring (long travel distance, bandits, weather and terrain concerns, disease) through mid and even mid-high levels, but I still want the PCs to be heroic men and women who strive (and often succeed) against great odds. We're an experianced group, and I think we can handle a system that rewards creativity and "thinking on your feet."

That's why I want low magic and gritty. I love D&D as written, but I've run it that way since 2000 and I'm looking for a change of style and pace. To say that I'm not thinking this through is wrong.

I think many gamers (me included) like the fact that Grim and Gritty and LOw Magic games require the players to use their own abilities and cunning and not resolve problems with a simple spell or magic items

Click to expand...

They do not do this any more than high magic games.

Magic != Easy Solution. Saying that it does is remarkably disengenious to every campaign out there that uses normal or high magic.

I'm of the opinion that "I want a different feel" is a good reason to go lmgng. I'm of the opinion that "I don't like raise dead" really isn't so much. Of course, they can combine to a certain degree.

Kamikaze Midget said:

They do not do this any more than high magic games.

Magic != Easy Solution. Saying that it does is remarkably disengenious to every campaign out there that uses normal or high magic.

Click to expand...

I agree. I've been in many high level "regular" magic level games where the PCs still role played, still tried to solve things without combat, and still felt threatened and challenged. I've often seen PCs resort to non-combat solutions at higher levels because 1) The gloves are off and the combat can be faster and more lethal at higher level 2) They don't necessarily know what they are up against 3) They also have more non-combat solutions open to them by the higher level spells.

Despite the somewhat outrageous assertions by those on the extreme ends of this discussion, this is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in a long time. I think, in some way, it gets at the very heart of why people choose to DM, why they like certain campaign styles over others, and I'm just very curious about those who are firmly attached to one side or the other.

Me, I could go either way -- I'm playing in a standard/high magic game and enjoying it, and i'm running a lower magic/grittier game and enjoying it.

There's no right or wrong here and yet some people are talking like the (relatively few) experiences they've had are enough to judge the whole playing style, which is just goofy. Even if you've played with a hundred different DMs or in a hundred different campaigns and they "all" went a certain way, you have no idea why others are doing what they're doing or if they're having fun at it -- unless you choose to just believe your fellow posters.

This is a fascinating discussion -- but please don't put yourself in the position of looking foolish simply because you can't conceive that something is true for others when it's not true for you.

Joshua Dyal said:

Rather than saying "low magic sucks just because" I think a more useful discussion would be how to make low magic, grim and gritty d20 games work.

Click to expand...

JD, thanks for your list. You're right -- grim/gritty doesn't mean "insta-death for PCs" -- it means "more shades of grey between 100% healthy/ready to fight and dead."

I did similar things -- it's easier to get "injured" in my house rules, but in some ways it's harder to "die" because almost all types of blunt attacks, as well as two energy types and two elemental types (cold, sonic, water, and air) cause subdual damage instead of hp damage in my game, and using AU's rules about disabled/dying makes it more likely that they can survive some kinds of attacks.

Healing isn't as "instant" here because the base healing spell converts some hp damage into subdual damage as it cures the patient; and the higher level healing spell has a chance of permanently scarring you. The "best" way to get healed in my game is to rest and be tended by a skilled healer or herbalist. And that's been a fun flavor factor, because it means you're in the dungeon less and in town more, and so they are involved in town politics etc.

edit: the house rules in question can be found here -- http://webpages.charter.net/ericnoah/noahrpg/au/au.htm

EricNoah said:

This is a fascinating discussion -- but please don't put yourself in the position of looking foolish simply because you can't conceive that something is true for others when it's not true for you.

Click to expand...

I agree 100% on that. I have played in both very high magic and very low magic campaigns (under the same DM) and had a great time with the campaigns. A high magic campaign can still be grim & gritty... I described a low magic game where, in the end, we faced down a demon and 8 of the 9 PCs had to sacrifice their lives to slow him down in order for the 9th PC to complete her mission.

However, a few years later, the same DM ran a campaign in the same gaming world, only this time the group was a bit smaller and it was very high magic. This time, in one climactic scene, my 12th level paladin and one other PC gave their lives to allow the rest of the party to escape from a horde of the same type of demon as the previous campaign's one demon. And, since we were on the demon's home plane, we both knew that we were also sacrificing our souls, as our gods would not be able to easily retrieve our souls from that plane. Great campaign as well, just as deadly and much sacrifice required...

Gothmog said:

Ok, its late and my brain isn't working like it should. If you'd tell me which of the modifications I suggested you were interested in seeing, I'd be happy to oblige.

Click to expand...

Gothmog,
The spell tables (if you have them) and the rules for the ritual casting/multiple casters. You mentioned that your solution was in 3E, has this ported well to 3.5? Also di you modify the item creation feats? Thanks.
Fenris