Practiced Spellcaster feat

Greatwyrm · Jul 20, 2004

I don't think Practiced Spellcaster is all that bad, but I think the fact that it needed to be made is the problem in the first place. I think if the spellcasting system was more unified, like in Midnight or Arcana Unearthed , things would be a little easier for the multiclassed spellcaster.

For example, if you had spellcaster levels stack in the first place (+1 for full casters like Wizards, +1/2 for others like Rangers), this would work better. If you had a Wiz 5/Clr 3, you'd have access to spells as a Wiz 5 and a Clr 3, but cast all your spells as if you were 8th level.

Of course, this doesn't really help the Ftr/Wiz. Oh well, back to the notepad...

Thanee · Jul 20, 2004

ruleslawyer said:
Practiced Spellcaster means that one of the MT's two major disadvantages goes away. That's a big deal. With PS, the MT only loses out on access to higher-level spells.

Erm, you are aware that a Mystic Theurge can do nothing but cast spells, aren't you?

Nothing, at all.

Their primary and only ability is to cast spells. They should at least be decent doing it, and they simply are not with a caster level lagging three points behind that of real spellcasters.

In our campaign (started before Complete Divine was out), my Sorceress was easily twice as powerful as our Mystic Theurge (and that is not an overstatement). Now he has replaced one of his two Spell Foci with Practiced Spellcaster and suddenly became a character that can at least halfway keep up with the rest of the party. No, he's far from being overpowered, I'd still say his casting ability is overall weaker than that of my Sorceress, but that's a fair price to pay for the added flexibility, whereas before it was just laughable.

A Mystic Theurge without Practiced Spellcaster is a complete whimp!

Even with Practiced Spellcaster they lack access to higher level spells (always 1.5 spell levels behind), and this is not "only lack", because that is a big deal for a primary and pure spellcaster. It's about the biggest penalty you could assign to them.

...but by Clr3/Wiz3/MT 10, the only disadvantage of the class is lack of access to 8th-level spells.

You don't seem to realize how much of a difference one spell level makes at these levels. It's huge, really.

Bye
Thanee

@Mr. Kaze: A human could still pick it twice then, or not?

Thanee · Jul 20, 2004

Greatwyrm said:
Of course, this doesn't really help the Ftr/Wiz. Oh well, back to the notepad...

Heh. Check the house rules forum.

Bye
Thanee

ruleslawyer · Jul 20, 2004

Thanee said:
You don't seem to realize how much of a difference one spell level makes at these levels. It's huge, really.

Thanee: I tend to be on the side of feeling like the MT is plenty weak; however, there's a bunch of debate on both sides about whether the class isn't in fact actually quite tough at higher levels. There's at least one poster who nearly bit my head off for daring to suggest that the MT had problems beyond being unable to beat SR! (See this thread , starting at the bottom of p.4). (I must say that if your MT player took two spell focus feats, he wasn't quite going the right route, unless it was toward archmage!) However, I think that PS goes a bit too far the other way when combined with the MT. The MT may be all about spellcasting, but it's all about versatile spellcasting as opposed to specialized spellcasting. Of course, that's a weak archetype, since D&D rewards specialization over versatility in the four-person party context. However, I think that allowing the MT to match a single-classed spellcaster in caster level is a bit powerful, specifically because it allows an MT to neglect his Wis score, max out his Int score, and use the wizard save-or-dies along with the cleric and wizard buffs.

Hypersmurf · Jul 20, 2004

Scion said:
Remember, all this feat does is alleviate part of a disadvantage. Feats that get rid of a disadvantage are almost invariably stronger than ones that give a benefit above and beyond.

Yeah. Take Two-Weapon Fighting.

If I use two weapons without the feat, my off-hand attack takes a -10 penalty. With the feat, it's a -4 penalty.

That's the equivalent of a +6 bonus to attack rolls! It's six times as strong as the Weapon Focus feat... and it applies to any off-hand weapon, not just one particular weapon like Weapon Focus.

... except it doesn't actually increase my total attack bonus beyond what someone with one weapon could have. It's just reducing the deficit I already have.

Likewise, PS does not increase caster level beyond what a straight-class caster could have. It just reduces the multi-classed caster's deficit.

-Hyp.

Thanee · Jul 20, 2004

ruleslawyer said:
(I must say that if your MT player took two spell focus feats, he wasn't quite going the right route, unless it was toward archmage!)

I better don't tell you what his other feats are...

But what is that right route you are talking about, anyways?

The MT may be all about spellcasting, but it's all about versatile spellcasting as opposed to specialized spellcasting.

Yeah, but that doesn't change, since the MT will still have the lower maximum spell level and the high amount of low level spells per day.

The only change is, that his spells are cast at a level appropriate for his character level. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, their versatility/flexibility is much more of a bonus at higher levels, but the lack of high level spells is a huge disadvantage. While low to medium level spells still are good and can achieve something, the highest level spells are where the real power lies. And this power is something the Mystic Theurge completely lacks.

At 20th level and beyond, they are probably better than pure wizards, when they also have 9th level arcane spells. But that's a long way to go.

However, I think that allowing the MT to match a single-classed spellcaster in caster level is a bit powerful, specifically because it allows an MT to neglect his Wis score, max out his Int score, and use the wizard save-or-dies along with the cleric and wizard buffs.

I fail to see the connection here. What does that have to do with caster level!?

Bye
Thanee

Thanee · Jul 20, 2004

Hypersmurf said:
... except it doesn't actually increase my total attack bonus beyond what someone with one weapon could have. It's just reducing the deficit I already have.

Likewise, PS does not increase caster level beyond what a straight-class caster could have. It just reduces the multi-classed caster's deficit.

Exactly.

Bye
Thanee

Scion · Jul 21, 2004

Also, in comparison with the mystic theurge who takes practiced spellcaster vs one who takes spell penetration.

The practiced chooses one of the two and gets +3 on his sr checks (and some other benefits, that tend to be fairly minor such as an extra 30' of distance or something, but I'll just stick to sr in this example).

The spell penetration guy gets +2 vs sr for all of his spells.

So +2 to all or +3 to half.. and since practiced 'should' be stronger (as it is merely alleviating a penalty rather than giving a bonus) it also drops some extra range and such for the guy as well.

Taking two practiced vs two spell penetration gives one guy who has +3 to sr for all of his spells vs a guy who has +4 for all of his spells.

So for this example at least just going straight by the base sr it looks like taking spell penetration is actually a 'better' bet.

I still think practiced is just fine as is

Methos of Aundair · Jul 21, 2004

as quoted by Thanee

3. Range of spell, same as #2 only resembles the Enlarge Spell feat.

Help me there... where does it allow you to break your (character) level limit? Enlarge Spell makes spells larger than they normally are. Practiced Spellcaster makes spells as large as they normally are.

I believe you are confusing your feats. Enlarge Spell doubles the range of the spell, not its size. Widen Spell adjusts size. Believe me, I had to double check the PHB before I made my post.

Thanee · Jul 21, 2004

LOL, oops.

But that doesn't change anything, just replace it with the following:

"Enlarge Spell makes spells reach farther than they normally do. Practiced Spellcaster makes spells reach as far as they normally do."

Bye
Thanee

P.S. They should call that feat Far Spell.