The Common Commoner

VirgilCaine · Aug 18, 2004

Right but, if you look at the RL world, you don't find anything that specifically hunts people. Lions, tigers, and bears sometimes do but people aren't their primary prey and it's generally old and wek animals that go after people. Sharks go after people on a fairly regular basis (at least as I understand it, the last I read, the great shark debate had turned against the rehabilitators) but, since we're not really aquatic creatures, that mostly impacts the surfing community. In the D&D world, the bestiary includes a LOT of large land predators from Remorhaz and Frost Worms to Bullettes, Wyverns, Chimera, dragons, and sphynxes. It also includes things like vampires that specifically prey on people.

So, I'm not thinking we've only got tigers IRL, but in fantasyland, they've got chimeras and wyverns. Rather, my point is that we don't really have any natural predators IRL, but in fantasyland we do. That seems like it would make a huge difference. A rhino may be as dangerous as a chimera but rhinos don't generally go out looking for people to gore. Chimeras do go out looking for people to eat. The world would, I think, be quite different if predators in the great white shark class roamed the land freely. That's what I'm getting at. It's not the individual threat level but rather the difference in behavior patterns that makes a difference.

Yeah...thats a problem. This thread is annoying because I like things to make sense. At this rate I'll have to find some system specifically made to make sense. Gah.

Here's a question. If there aren't many "big land predators" (that trophic level thing, you know), why COULDN'T you just wipe most of them out?

And how do more humanoids keep appearing with weapons and armor and all, after armies or mercenaries or adventurers wipe them out?

I had the thought that they keep coming from the various cave openings to the GenericBigCaveSystem. Other than that, or they appear from the Lower Planes, I don't know.

BelXiror · Aug 18, 2004

Another thing to remember is FRIENDLY critters. There may be a unicorn living in the local forest, that may not specifically help the locals, does help to keep the goblins at bay just by existing nearby.

Maybe the village saved a wyrmling bronze or silver dragon, who, 500 years later, still keeps an eye on the village that saved it's life. Much like Gandalf and the Shire, maybe it passes through in human form to liven things up, to keep track of families, specially the decendents on the one's who saved it.

These friendly critters will be the ones to deal with the not-so friendly critters that are out of the villages league. Maybe a nomadic group of giants are passing, and the village sends a messenger to the local friendly critter to help, with the promise of reward. Of course, they may run into adventures first

One metallic dragon living near a group of villages could make a world of difference on survivability. Of course, they may not be able to help regularly, as they may be busy dealing with chromatic dragons they may want to move in. The unicorn in the wood may have sway over the local fey (woot, rhyme!) and wild animals, cutting back on animal encounters. Also keeping track of lost children, as if there are woods to get lost in, sure enough they'll get lost, and the forest protectors could lead them out.

Petitioning local friendly critters for help would be another path to survival in the D&D world.

kigmatzomat · Aug 18, 2004

barsoomcore said:
kigmatzomat said:

I will point out that according to the PHB, accidents & disease excluded, the average person will live to about 90. In our world, old age claims people much closer to the 80s, so I think it could be said the default setting assumes magic has some impact on longevity.

Click to expand...

Exactly. And any increase in average longevity will cause a corresponding increase in overall population. If people are living longer, there will be more people. Which will lead to a non-medieval setting.

Not exactly true. Natural lifespan and *average* lifespan are different. The PHB says nothing about plagues or accidental death. If you manage to duck the plagues, avoid the hungy things, and not impale yourself on something sharp, you will likely live to 90 before your organs shut down.

Second, some medieval periods were thick with people. That's part of the reason the plagues were so effective; plenty of transit vectors.

Monster Attacks: Suggesting that your average settlement gets attacked twice a day by deadly monsters is insupportable.

It also goes against the DMG. My 3.0 DMG says that civilized areas have the following encounters at CR1-6:
bandits cats dogs wild dogs farmers
ghost herders hunters merchants minstrels
patrol pilgrims travelers vampire

By this list, 12 out of 14 encounters are perfectly mundane and 8 of the 14 are harmless or beneficial. 2 encounters a day becomes 4 potentially dangerous encounters per week.

Furthermore, I'll point out that even in a Thorp there are people who can deal with all but the ghost and vampire. If it's a weak enough vampire or ghost, the local cleric might be able to at least keep it at bay until help arrives.

Here is the average level of each class for each community.

........thorp.hamlet.village.s.town.ltown.scity.lcity..metropolis
Barbarian...0.....1.......2.....3.....6.....9.....12.....15
Bard.........1.....2.......3.....4.....7.....10....13.....16
Cleric........1.....2.......3.....4.....7.....10....13.....16
Druid........1.....2.......3.....4.....7.....10....13.....16
Fighter.....2.....3.......4.....5.....8.....11....14.....17
Monk........0.....1.......2.....3.....6.....9.....12.....15
Paladin.....0.....0.......1.....2.....5.....8.....11.....14
Ranger......0.....0.......1.....2.....5.....8.....11.....14
Rogue.......2.....3.......4.....5.....8.....11....14.....17
Sorceror...0.....1.......2.....3.....6.....9.....12.....15
Wizard......0.....1.......2.....3.....6.....9.....12.....15
adept......1.....2.......3.....4.....7.....10....13.....16
aristocrat.0.....1.......2.....3.....6.....9.....12.....15
commoner.7.....8.......9.....10....13....16....19.....20
expert......5.....6.......7.....8.....11....14....17.....20
warrior.....2.....3.......4.....5.....8.....11....14.....17

*5% chance of having a druid or ranger of >8th level

And if we assume that instead, the villagers would remain, and gain levels from successfully fighting off monsters, doesn't that put an end to the "commoners have no access to magic above 1st level" argument?

Even if you don't agree with my population distribution, the description of the casters and magic items available in each type of community are straight from the DMG. The simple fact is that the bulk of commoners know at least a divine caster, and likely two or three. Admittedly, they really don't understand it more than most modern people understand their computers or TVs, but they are somewhat comfortable with it.

The flip side is that unless you have a very urban setting, only communities that are Large Towns (pop 2000+) or bigger will have anything other than 1st or 2nd level spells.

A 9th-level adept has 3rd-level spells, and if Toothless Joe the commoner can be 9th level, why not Mumbling Fred the adept?

If you are going by the DMG, Fred can be a 9th level adept, but they are much less common. Any community, even a thorpe, can have a 9th level commoner but it takes something the size of a large town to come up with your first 9th level adept.

Note that a band of 30-100 orcs includes 3 7th-level barbarians, 5 5th-level barbarians and a 3rd-level barbarian for every 10 orcs. These guys are going wipe your average village or thorp off the map. That's 30 orcs -- a force like that could cut a massive swath through any kingdom populated the way this thread suggests.

Maybe the way you suggest. That 30 orcs is actually 75 orcs since a band consists of 30-100 orcs *PLUS* 150% non-combatants. So that's 30+45 orcs.

And that band is a CR11 if I'm doing the math right. A typical village could take them since it is about 5% 1st level warriors, meaning there are 45 1st level warriors in a typical village. The orc leaders might escape, but the main force will get chewed up. An orcish ambush will cause heavy losses in the village, but the village will still repulse the warband. A Small Town with ~100 1st level warriors will handle the largest orc bands.

Withholding spells: Spellcasters in D&D have NO REASON not to use every spell they get every day of their life. None.

IMO, a caster should hope to *NOT* need to cast every spell. You know there is such a thing as thoughtful casting, a place between frivolity and paranoia. Many spells are only useful in when used at the right time. The right time is when they are needed, not "because they are there."

Sometimes the right time is "tomorrow" or "when little Timmy's had time to realize that taunting the bull results in pain." If someone's about to die you hit them with a spell right then, even if it's your last. If they aren't at risk of dying and you're down to your last spell, you hold off until you've got more spells. It's no different from an archer down to his last arrow; you have to evaluate the benefits and risks.

Umbra · Aug 18, 2004

Elder-Basilisk said:
...since it's always possible that things could have been different--can be very helpful to creating a believable and entertaining campaign.
...
Both campaigns would use the DMG assumptions but there would be a dramatic difference to the feel of each campaign. That feel comes from asking the question: "Why does it look like this and not something completely different?"

Speculative Fiction is often the result of "What If..." questions. Interesting campaign worlds and adventures are the same. And it's what makes this thread interesting.

What if healing magic is readily available? What are the consequences? Are there magical diseases that can't be healed normally?
What if there is a special crop, the roots of which are a key component for spell casting? What are the economic consequences for the common farmer? How well would that farmer be treated by wizards, clerics, etc? Would he be enslaved or respected?
What if the church of the healing god(dess) has developed a 'tablet' with a single hp of curing on it that MUST be available to the 'faithful' free or for low cost? How powerful does the chuch become among the commoners? How do aristocrats react?
What if commoners have only suffered at the hands of magic (divine, arcane, both)? How do they treat spellcasters? How do spell casters respond?

All questions that can be hooks for adventures and campaigns.

Elder-Basilisk · Aug 18, 2004

VirgilCaine said:
Yeah...thats a problem. This thread is annoying because I like things to make sense. At this rate I'll have to find some system specifically made to make sense. Gah.

Here's a question. If there aren't many "big land predators" (that trophic level thing, you know), why COULDN'T you just wipe most of them out?

I don't think there's any reason that you couldn't just wipe them out. In fact, doing so would make an interesting campaign that would fit really well within the spirit of D&D but would seem pretty original. "We're the extinction committee and we're coming for the worgs first, then for the hippogriffs (we'll keep the eggs to breed mounts for cavalry--so they get to be domesticated rather than exterminated), then for dire wolves, then for the winter wolves, then for the wyverns, then for the bulettes, then for the behirs, then for the Remorhaz, then for the dragons." You could even make "Great White Hunter" a prestige class.

On another note, you might as a DM go through the Monster Manual and pick out a few of those "big predators" that have been hunted to extinction and put in-game references to their extinction into adventures. "In those days, dire bears/dragons walked the earth." The players will be expecting to find some dire bears/dragons then hiding in an obscure valley, ready to swoop down in tremendous groups and destroy civilization because that's what happens in fantasy stories. Dragons were a myth in Dragonlance then they came back with a vengeance. You could go along with this, knowing that there will be a payoff when they finally confront the insane wizard/druid who is resurrecting the monsters of the past or when, in the tropical valley in the midst of the distant ice-covered mountains they encounter the last of the dragons, or when they find the undead dragon, or you could surprise them and stick to your guns. They find the bones of the last dragon inside its trapfilled lair, along with the remains of the hero of the ages past who slew it in single combat. Now, it is the age of men. The age of dragons is past and will not return.

And how do more humanoids keep appearing with weapons and armor and all, after armies or mercenaries or adventurers wipe them out?

I've always assumed that adventurers, armies and mercenaries don't wipe them out. In Greyhawk, Turosh Mak and the orcs of the Pomarj have a pretty good hold on their territory, the North Kingdom (and probably Ahlissa too) uses orcs as soldiers, gnolls and other humanoids conquered the Bone March, and other humanoid tribes under Iuz's banner have had quite a bit of success in the Shieldlands, Tenh, etc. So, the humanoid armies come from exactly the same place that the Carthigenian armies that kept menacing Rome came from: the empires and cities they control. If they were to be wiped out, they wouldn't come back but so far, nobody has wiped them out.

I had the thought that they keep coming from the various cave openings to the GenericBigCaveSystem. Other than that, or they appear from the Lower Planes, I don't know.

That's entirely possible. If you ask why they keep coming out of the cave system, there's plenty of possibilities: an expanding empire keeps pushing more and more humanoid tribes out into the sunlit realms, the really big D&D predators (which everyone knows are worse in the GenericBigCaveSystem) are breeding too quickly and pushing them out, or perhaps, like the Goths, Visigoths, etc. they smell the blood of decadent and decaying surface civilizations in the water and have come to claim their share of the loot. (Of course that only works if the surface civilizations are actually decadent and decaying).

FreeTheSlaves · Aug 18, 2004

In regard to the magic as technology, the really big issue is distribution of wealth and freedom of opportunity.

When I did my history/politics studies 5 years ago, I was quoted some UN statistics that a majority of people have not touched a telephone, let alone a computer.

We live in an enlightened age, with solutions to most ailments and some 1/3 of the worlds population is in serious poverty. Something like a billion people don't have clean water. Ok I need to check the UN website for exactness but you get the point.

In a default D&D world the wealth is highly concentrated (high level characters) and society infrastructure is quite weak. There is no formal social security, healthcare or education provided out of taxes. Taxes are not based on needs of the government, instead they are based on how much can we take without ruining future trade. Governments are decentralized feudal fiefdoms dependant on the lords character. Corruption occurs at all levels of administration as there are no independant checks on powers. There is no UN Council, WTO, IMF to help struggling minorities, peoples and states. Instead there are kingdoms limited only by their strength at arms and internal power struggles.

If our modern real world has huge issues providing for our populations, how bad is the D&D default worlds situation. Fancy spells and magic items are just going to become dominated by the elite. Sure there may be do-gooder Clerics helping their fellows but I bet the majority will be providing services to the nobles and merchants for big $s. Furthermore most of the gods won't give a toot about that side of things.

I'm A Banana · Aug 18, 2004

Withholding spells: Spellcasters in D&D have NO REASON not to use every spell they get every day of their life. None.

Just like there's no reason for a fighter in D&D not to chop down every tree he sees in a day with his axes. NO REASON. None. Also, no one stubbs their toe or goes to the bathroom or has a scar that isn't either hideous or strangely alluring.

But it doesn't happen. Because people only put forth the minimal amount of effort nessecary to get things done and to help out those they care about, in general. Just because spellcasting doesn't fatigue you mechanically doens't mean it's effortless...just like chopping down a tree doesn't mechanically fatigue you, but it's certainly not effortless. For a low-level spellcaster, a cure light wounds could be the equivalent of chopping down a tree. And would you go out every day an chop down a tree just because you had the ability to? Heck, even if you worship a God of Deforestation, would you? Think of how often a good Catholic is supposed to go to Confession and how often the ones you may know actually do. It's the exception that do, not the rule.

Just because you can doesn't mean you will. And I think this needs to be applied to NPC's, though PC's generally overlook that fact (because to them, it's just a game, these are just powers, and they're there to be used...though their Characters certainly wouldn't think think that way).

Yeah...thats a problem. This thread is annoying because I like things to make sense. At this rate I'll have to find some system specifically made to make sense. Gah.

Try HARN. It does a good job from what I've heard.

Here's a question. If there aren't many "big land predators" (that trophic level thing, you know), why COULDN'T you just wipe most of them out?

And how do more humanoids keep appearing with weapons and armor and all, after armies or mercenaries or adventurers wipe them out?

I had the thought that they keep coming from the various cave openings to the GenericBigCaveSystem. Other than that, or they appear from the Lower Planes, I don't know.

You can't just wipe them out because there are so many of them, so well equipped to survive, and only so many of you. The closest anyone gets are adventurers (who are the Great White Hunters of the D&D world.

). And they have other things to do than eliminate every last orc....like stop the mad wizard from creating an apocalypse, or defending another thorp against an incusion of undead, or exploring that recently discovered tomb on the King's dime. These things happen pretty much every day in a D&D world.

Manufactured weapons and armor are rare with monsters...and those that have them either grab them from raiding (kill the fighter, loot the corpse!), or can make them themselves from surrounding materials (why wouldn't orcs have the same forge technology that humans do?).

[2/day monster attacks] also goes against the DMG. My 3.0 DMG says that civilized areas have the following encounters at CR1-6:
bandits cats dogs wild dogs farmers
ghost herders hunters merchants minstrels
patrol pilgrims travelers vampire

I arrived at my figures by using the 3.5 DMG, the "10% rule" (there is a 10% chance every hour of a random encounter in a well-traveled area), and the encounter table for temperate plains. It is extrapolation. But it is based on the rules, and it holds up to scrutiny...it will vary on individual campaigns, but it is a good basis, with evidence, for supporting a very dangerous world.

If you'd like it not so dangerous, go for it. But then realize that your demographics will be screwy...without big predators striking every day, what is keeping people dead? You don't have to answer this question, of course, but I specifically entered this trying to show what a typical D&D commoner's life might be like in a way that makes sense for a typical D&D world. This makes sense, and is based on the rules, even if it is extrapolation. I had to answer the question. And the answer I came up with was "It's a world where people die frequently, and your resources are never just yours for long." And it works like that.

Assuming that these individuals started in a village, hamlet, or even a thorp, where the heck did they get that kind of money? A first level cleric in a thorp could buy the most expensive thing in the whole freaking town three times over.

Well, first of all assuming your average party of adventurers comes from a small town is a pretty big assumption...the PC's aren't average folks. They're significantly, in many ways, above average -- this is the assumption of the core rules. They are the creme de la creme of humanity, and by the time they finish training, they know it. Most adventurers probably come from bigger cities -- other adventurers certainly tend to gather there.

But even if they don't, it's still pretty easy to explain where they get this gold. They found their first treasure as apprentices, they were given expensive graduation gifts from their mentors (higher-level folk with the same class), the gear is the family's savings that they're giving to their promising daughter/son.

This assumes a world where no XP is given for noncombat encounters. If the campaign awards story or roleplaying XP to the PCs, then it should also do the same for NPCs (following on our extrapolation of PC rules to the world at large).

Right, the only problem is that there is no codified system for how much XP should be given for story or roleplaying...just life-threatening challenges. You could probably reward some age-based system of XP and reduce the threat of the world (many people would probably prefer that), and come out as a wash.

To grab 1 quick example: MM lists the attack of a rhino as 2d6+12, which would be a max of 24hp. A 5th level NPC barbarian with average hp & no CON bonus could thus survive a full damage (non-crit) gore from a rhino, while no one IRL can survive a full damage (figuring the RL equivalent would be through the center of the chest, rather than a leg) goring by a rhino.

I think D&D rules severely underestimate the dangers of 'mundane' creatures of the sorts which our ancestors would've encountered; if you take this discrepancy into account the survival risks they faced are probably much closer to those encountered in a D&D world than what we might think.

At the same time, I think you're underestimating a 5th level barbarian.

No human being IRL is as tough, as dedicated, as powerful as a 5th level barbarian. Heck, I'd go far enough to suggest that no human being IRL is as tough, as dedicated, as powerful, as a 2nd level Expert.

Though of course applying D&D-isms to real-life situation is always a dicey prospect, I think that people IRL are more like the 2-8 hp type, rather than the 12-24 hp type. And in that case, full damage from a rhino would kill anyone; but a glancing blow from a rhino might not.

Petitioning local friendly critters for help would be another path to survival in the D&D world.

Yoink.

Turanil · Aug 18, 2004

Well, I propose that a digest of this thread be made, keeping the best points. This would be turned into an article available for everyone at anytime. I think there is an Enworld section detailing articles.

(Well, I cannot do that myself right now, being overloaded with work, but maybe much later).

kigmatzomat · Aug 18, 2004

VirgilCaine said:
Here's a question. If there aren't many "big land predators" (that trophic level thing, you know), why COULDN'T you just wipe most of them out?

I think the words your looking for are "druids" and "rangers." Remember that 1/20th of the thorpes and villages have an 8th-14th level druid and/or ranger. Since Thorpes and Villages should be a large percentage of the communities out there, there are quite a lot of high level druids and rangers to protected the great-toothed carnosaurus. And quite a lot more lower level druids and rangers.

I'm sure the God of Nature(Generic) might not like it if the nice ecosystem was anhiliated and replaced by farmland. While I generally don't recommend people watch Beastmaster, the notion of the semi-feral nature diety slaughtering those who impose on her children is a pretty good one.

And how do more humanoids keep appearing with weapons and armor and all, after armies or mercenaries or adventurers wipe them out?

I'd guess homelands. I know in several stock settings, there were areas of rough terrain that homed the bulk of the humanoid populace. The terrain is too rough and there are too many isolated pockets of individuals to ever eliminate them. Treat them like the indians out of the old cowboy movies. A few hundred get riled up by a warchief, burn a few villages and get driven back by the cavalry. The survivors probably have more loot as a whole than when the campaign started and it thins out the weak. It's a kind of darwinian event.

Elder-Basilisk · Aug 18, 2004

I don't know about that. Watching the news (or reading it online) I fairly regularly come across stories like the Norwegian fishing boat captain who, seeing rather large shark coming after his catch while the men were pulling it into the boat, jumped into the water, dragged the shark onto the beach and killed it with a knife. And then there are stories like the scottish regiment in Iraq who were surrounded by enemies who outnumbered them 2 or 3 to one, pinned down by enemy fire, and out of ammunition so they fixed bayonets, charged, and routed their enemies at the cost of only a couple minor injuries.

If you don't feel the need to assume that 100 hit points represents the abilitiy to take 10 full-strength blows from a greatsword and are willing to suppose that some of them represent minor damage, luck, etc, I don't find D&D characters to be as unrealistic as commonly supposed. Certainly, there are people as touch as a 2nd level expert.

Kamikaze Midget said:
At the same time, I think you're underestimating a 5th level barbarian. No human being IRL is as tough, as dedicated, as powerful as a 5th level barbarian. Heck, I'd go far enough to suggest that no human being IRL is as tough, as dedicated, as powerful, as a 2nd level Expert. Though of course applying D&D-isms to real-life situation is always a dicey prospect, I think that people IRL are more like the 2-8 hp type, rather than the 12-24 hp type. And in that case, full damage from a rhino would kill anyone; but a glancing blow from a rhino might not.