The Common Commoner

GSHamster · Aug 12, 2004

Kamikaze Midget said:
* With this capacity, half of the places in the entire world do not have access to 2nd level spells.

Half of the places in the world, maybe. However, these places collectively contain a very small number of people. (Certainly less than 50%.)

If the question is: "What percentage of the people do not have access to 2nd level spells?", I'd suggest that the answer is much lower than 50%.

If you have 9 hamlets with 11 people each, and one village with 900 people and a 3rd level cleric, you could say:

1. 90% of all places do not have access to 2nd level spells.
2. 10% of all people do not have access to 2nd level spells.

I think that option 2 is a more meaningful option, at least in the context of this discussion. (The numbers are made up to illustrate the argument. I don't have a DMG at the moment to give real numbers.)

That's the only flaw I see in your argument, though. It was an interesting read.

Wombat · Aug 12, 2004

Very interesting thoughts.

Since there are so many marauding monsters, the lives of the peasants must be even more fatalisitic than in European peasant communities -- "We can't control 'em, we aren't given the weapons, and they keep the magic locked up in the towns!" (Hmmm, might be some very serious resentment there...) Raids twice a day would lead to a grossly high mortality rate, a very low crop yield (constantly tramelling over the fields), and a general sense of doom, unless we are counting a single wolf as a "raid". Goblins and kobolds would be fairly commonly seen, at least.

This would suggest that the peasants are more seriously drilled as a militia than in a standard European community -- they would have to be able to drive off incursions on a more regular basis, thus the injunctions against peasants owning weapons would probably fall by the wayside. The weapons might not be stellar, but the number of spears around the scatter would be much larger than a European community of, say, 1400 AD.

Every peasant would have seen magic actually working, often publically. This would make for a very different attitude; of course this is already built into D&D, since there is no fear of witches, wizards, etc. Low level potions, while not everyday, are available and kept in store; this makes for safer medicine than anything practiced prior to the mid-19th century, so maybe that helps balance out life expectancy from the raiding.

Another question that arises is that of race -- are most of these communities monoracial? (e.g. all human, all dwarf, etc.) This would make the most sense if one were trying to maintain a viable community, as being the lone dwarf in a community would lead to a lot of loneliness. OTOH, we already see that humans and elves may intermarry, thus those sorts of communities would be at least somewhat common. Half-orcs, conversely, would probably come about mainly due to **hem hem** post-raid activities. But it appears that half-orcs breed oddly "true" (i.e. a half-orc and a half-orc produces a half-orc) if the species were to survive; barring that, orc males might be terrifically fertile or they are the major raiders. In any case, the place of the half-orc in these socieities would be miserable and desperate.

**whew** lot of ideas here!

I'll try to think of some more later.

Sado · Aug 12, 2004

Kamikaze Midget said:
I'm thinking of running a campaign where the PC's start as NPC's....any great ideas for me evoking this bumpkin feel?

I have often wondered how a campaign would go with only NPC classes available (with maybe an arcane version of the Adept). It seems like the PC's wouldn't get as powerful as fast, and the same types of enemies/monsters could be used for longer periods of time.

Has anyone tried this?

Li Shenron · Aug 12, 2004

This is the kind of article that I would like to see paired with the "rules of the game" on WotC website... Much more insightful! Thank you KM

MoogleEmpMog · Aug 12, 2004

Excellent article!

It does raise one point that's always bugged me about D&D (especially in 3e):

PCs aren't just wealthy, they're fantastically wealthy, wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice, rich enough to become kings themselves.

At 5th level.

The DMG expects treasure from encounters to amount to 21,328 gp for a party of four 5th-level PCs.

With that money, the PCs could pay 2000 commoners (200 gp/day) for 105 days. Assuming that each commoner's labor generated at least 1 sp/day worth of goods and services after day 52, the PCs could continue paying them indefinitely without 'losing' any further money. They could dump the remaining 10,500 gp into land and construction costs and hiring mercenary Warriors to suppliment the militia.

Within a year, four 5th-level PCs could create a self-sustaining DMG 'small town' using only their personal wealth from adventuring.

If they could in that year continue to adventure enough to reach 6th level, they would acquire another 5,000 gp. To 7th level, another 8,000 gp on top of that. Their level progression is slowed by administrative duties, to be sure, but they are minor warrior chieftain/barons and can be expected to do their share of treasure hunting.

Let's say our landlord PCs reach 10th level five years after they founded their town. They now possess about 55,000 gp worth of resources over and above what they had when they broke ground on it. Enough to start two additional towns of the same type.

Now our PCs have 6,000 subjects, equivalent to a 'small city' by DMG standards. Some of their original subjects probably leveled as commoners, warriors or experts. Many of them probably produce more than 1 sp/day, and the initial town is probably turning a profit.

At this point, adventuring slows down even more.

But the PCs do reach 15th level in another ten years. The half-orcs among them may be looking at retirement, but if they started out at about age 20-25, the now-40-year-old humans are still in adventuring trim, and the longer-lived among them are still mere lads. And they control an additional 220,000 gp. By now, some of the children of their initial hirelings are adults capable of producing in their own right, the initial town has probably swelled to 'small city' size, they may have taken Leadership to acquire more 'free' adherents, and they control up to a metropolis' worth of people. Their frontier barony, carved out by their own hands, is now a decently-sized kingdom backed by its council of four 15th-level rulers who can singlehandedly turn aside small armies.

At the age of 40, with no hereditary income and no starting resources but the swords and staves on their backs, they control a small nation capable of butting heads with established kings. Their wealth is so far beyond the limits of a commoner's understanding that he can no more wrap his head around it than a typical modern person can Bill Gates' financial resources.

If, by the age of 60 (probably losing their half-orcish companion), they reach 20th level... they will possess hundreds of thousands of gp, vast personal power, and the ability to literally conquer any nation in the world not backed by similarly powerful characters. And if they manage their nation efficiently, they might actually be able to trump those established 20th-level-NPC-backed kingdoms as well.

This would lend itself to a political situation *far* more unstable than that postulated by core D&D, a much more Conan-esque world where high-level heroes trample the jeweled thrones of their retired predecessors beneath their feat almost on a generational basis.

I'm A Banana · Aug 12, 2004

Thanks for all the great replies....actually, I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been done before, heh.

Half of the places in the world, maybe. However, these places collectively contain a very small number of people. (Certainly less than 50%.)

If the question is: "What percentage of the people do not have access to 2nd level spells?", I'd suggest that the answer is much lower than 50%.

This is is refuted by my first point, quoted directly from the DMG:

"In general, the number of people living in small towns and larger communities should be about 1/10 to 1/15 the number living in villages, hamlets, thorps, or outside a community at all."

Which means that FIFTEEN TIMES as many people live in small settlements that can't afford half plate as live in all the places that can afford halfplate and more, combined. 1.5 million people who've never seen a spell over second level; compared to, say, 100,000 people who have. That's about 6% of the population, if my math is right.

You tell me which one you're more likely to encounter as a Typical D&D Commoner. 6% of the population who've seen second level spells, or 94% who haven't.

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As for my own NPC campaign, it's officially a go (after a summer of high-ish-level play, they're interested in the low-level challenges). I'm starting them in a hamlet (half the world's in villages or less; half of that half is in hamlets), letting 'em choose the PC classes that the place has (not all of 'em...not a cleric or druid among 'em...but I added psi and OA and Complete and Eberron classes, too, using the same d4/5%d8 mechanic that the core uses for monks). OR, they can have two levels in an NPC class. OR they can have three levels in Commonner. As they meet more folks, they can get training in more classes...and I'll give 'em PC wealth, not NPC wealth, so they'll have nice 'trust funds' to start with.

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This is the kind of article that I would like to see paired with the "rules of the game" on WotC website... Much more insightful!

I tend to agree, there should be more DM-oriented 'rules of the game.'

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PC's are OBSCENELY wealthy compared to NPC's, even those who make a living adventuring...and I see dungeons as D&D 'boom towns.' Once the dangerous monsters are cleared out, the NPC's move in, pick up what the wealthy PC's drop (which is a lot of gold, if the NPC's can offer them the right stuff), and channel the raw materials into the NEXT big dungeon...it's why after a few generations, ruins could have sprung up on top of each other, being inhabited by monsters, cleared out, become a boom town, and faded again, becoming once again home to dangerous monsters, in the course of 50-100 years.
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Racial Demographics: These are...vague in D&D.

Basically, an "isolated" community (which is probably still in that 50% of civilizations) is 96% human, with the rest being halflings, elves, or 'other races.' In a 700 person village, this means there's 672 humans, 14 halflings (a family or three), 7 elves, and 7 half-elves, half-orcs, dwarves, and gnomes (maybe 2 half-elves, 2 dwarves, 2 gnomes, and 1 poor thug of a half-orc). Everyone is represented, but a lot of 'em are probably imports -- the half-orc could be an elite fighter brought from the kingdom to help protect the village, maybe the gnomes are the two bards the town has.

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On Peasant Fear: My guess is that in a world with magic, that magic is REQUIRED to survive against the monsters that are fundamentally unnatural. They may only have one wizard, but that wizard better show up when the goblins come callin', or he's liable to be the one that the peasants DON'T protect the next time around. That create water? It's a nessecity, when half of your fields are basically raided for other creatures. You've gotta make sure that the town has enough. The same is true with things like the higher occurence of Lawful power centers -- it's a requirement, because if you don't work together, the gnolls come gitcha. It's also why Adventuring is not a rare profession....while the PC's may be one-in-a-million heroes, Adventurers (mostly NPC's) happen nearly everyplace.

Goblyns Hoard · Aug 12, 2004

KM - nice article, and a great help to me in making a 'high magic' world but where I don't want magic to be ubiquitous.

However
1- That 2nd level cleric can cast 2 spells a day! Is he really holding back from helping the needy just because they can't afford his fee. What god of healing is going to stand for a priest that won't heal an injured child just cause the parents are poor farmers? I know this doesn't change a big part of your point, but we shouldn't assume DMG based definitions of fees would apply to all... maybe priests charge like some pharma companies do - you in England can afford to pay so cough up, you in sub-Saharan Africa can't, I you can have it for a lot less.

2- on the raiding issue - the random encounters at 10% is just that - a random encounter. That could be with a friendly farmer taking his produce to town, or with deer grazing in a forest... no farmer is going to continue to live somewhere where gnolls attack as often as you say - he won't be able to produce food, which means the local knight/warlord/whoever is going to send in something to deal with those gnolls - otherwise there isn't any food for the warlord to buy, so his troops are going hungry as well.

Overall I do agree with your points, and particularly things like the prevalence of armour, even swords. Magic for the majority of people are 0/1st level spells ONLY. Most everyone will have faced or know someone who's faced some sort of beastie and someone who died doing the same. But any town with a cleric is going to have decent healing - not enough to fend of plague, but enough to treat a few sick people over the course of a week, or heal the farmer after his accident with his scythe (not regenerate... just stop him from dying!)

I'm A Banana · Aug 12, 2004

That 2nd level cleric can cast 2 spells a day! Is he really holding back from helping the needy just because they can't afford his fee. What god of healing is going to stand for a priest that won't heal an injured child just cause the parents are poor farmers? I know this doesn't change a big part of your point, but we shouldn't assume DMG based definitions of fees would apply to all... maybe priests charge like some pharma companies do - you in England can afford to pay so cough up, you in sub-Saharan Africa can't, I you can have it for a lot less.

Well, yeah, he is holding back...in the same way that just because the local commoner COULD give his 1 sp/day to charity, he instead keeps it for himself; or how the local expert COULD make more horseshoes, but he's feeling really tired from the wife and kids.

Basically, casting spells costs effort, and if he doesn't see a need, he won't make the effort.

Aside from that 'natural human instinct to take things easy', there's a few details. He might not serve a god of healing, for one.

But assuming he does, he's gotta have a reason to use those spells...to him, the stubbed toe or the scraped knee just doesn't require his attention...he doesn't want every wounded victim coming to him, and he doesn't want the people to forget how to make bandages and Heal checks. So he charges. Sure, if he's a Good Guy, he's around for emergencies and the like...and that's why he doesn't heal everyone who wants it.

But most importantly, think of the monsters. Those who fend them off need that healing, more so than Farmer John and his Scythe Accident...there's no way that he could, even with that magic, ever heal every wound caused...natural healing will have to do. And assuming the 2/day encounter rate, he's going to need to spend his spells (including most of the scrolls he's scribed) healing the most wounded victims of that.

He'll save lives...but those lives would definately be lost without magic. Natural healing only would mean that it's a war of attrition between the hp of the town and the damage the monsters can deal. The cleric's cure light wounds (possibly free of charge as a 'perk' of being a member of the militia) ensures that those who defend the town can continue to do so.

The price exists for those who want the convenience of doing it when the cleric isn't that interested...he'll help out his friends, he'll 'do his duty,' but he's not going to give broken bone a cure. The populous would get lazy, those who suffer in defense of the town wouldn't be hurt, and he needs some way to pay for those scrolls he's scribing for the emergency situations. In addition, it's 'work.' Rest assured that on his day off, he's not casting anything.

2- on the raiding issue - the random encounters at 10% is just that - a random encounter. That could be with a friendly farmer taking his produce to town, or with deer grazing in a forest... no farmer is going to continue to live somewhere where gnolls attack as often as you say - he won't be able to produce food, which means the local knight/warlord/whoever is going to send in something to deal with those gnolls - otherwise there isn't any food for the warlord to buy, so his troops are going hungry as well.

True, not all encounters need to be hostile, but all encounters involve a 'challenge' of some sort. One of the random plains encounters is a 5th level paladin...he's not going to attack the town, but he is going to create a disturbance, and maybe his presence attracts something that *does* attack the town. A deer in a forest isn't an encounter (there's no EL, there's no XP for 'overcoming' it, etc.), so thousands of those happen regularly without a problem. That 2/day figure basically shows the 'challenges' the people of the town overcome.

In addition, the farmer farms that dangerous region largely because he has no choice. It's the best life he can lead. Either farm with the gnolls or sell trinkets in city squallor, and one of them his family's been doing for generations.

The gnolls weren't as bad in his pappy's day, etc. And the reason he can still survive is *because* there are more powerful beings than him in the world who can protect him, who can ensure food to eat, etc. D&D towns probably have great storage systems, because the chance that monsters will destroy everything you own is almost more of a 'when' than an 'if.' In addition, a purify food and drink makes the storage not requiring complex cooling mechanisms or the like. "Gruel" is basically purified stuff that rotted away last year into a paste.

And aside from that, the king *definately* sends troops to help out...where do you think that cleric came from, or that fighter? Certainly not the town, they don't have enough to outfit such people...they've been sent from outside, from the castle, from the city, and they live in the town on a temporary basis. They probably teach the kids for a year or two, and leave at the end of their term back to the castle, being replaced with new people,too, and taking the 'promising youths' (those who've gained a lot of levels) into the larger cities.

I imagine the Machiavellis of D&D definately have something to say about 'buffer farms.' You have commoners farming the lands around the central druids or clerics field; the commoners' farms can be lost in monster attacks, and as long as the main field stays operational, the town can still eat (because the yeild would have been increased by minor magic).

Piratecat · Aug 12, 2004

GSHamster said:
1. 90% of all places do not have access to 2nd level spells.
2. 10% of all people do not have access to 2nd level spells.

I think that option 2 is a more meaningful option, at least in the context of this discussion. (The numbers are made up to illustrate the argument. I don't have a DMG at the moment to give real numbers.)

Ithink I disagree. All those people in the city are insular. It is the people in the hamlets and villages are are creating food for all the city folks to eat. They are also who the PCs will run into 9 times out of 10 when travelling anywhere. When natural disaster or monsters strike, it's going to be the villages that have the most trouble resisting. . . and then what happens to the city folk next harvest-time?

Fantastic thread.