The Common Commoner

Elder-Basilisk said:

At the end of this implausible paen to the inevitability of technological Progress, let's imagine the world 300 years after the first running water, flush toilets and showers were installed on the British Isles, massive roads were constructed, laws were formalized, etc.
Oh, that's right. Three hundred years after all of that, this ragged guy (or clean-cut romanized celt) named Arcturos (or Arthur or something like that) was busy leading a group of warriors from Caer Camel or thereabouts to fight the saxon invaders on Mount Badon. Or at least, that's what the legends say. ...All the wonder and glory of Roman Britain turned to dust. History has been full of golden ages, conquering heros, progress and advancement. Most of thoe inheritors of the golden ages have descended into decadence and returned to barbarism. Most of those conquering heroes are food for the worms. Most of that ancient progress is forgotten only to be rediscovered in part by later civilizations at later times.
We dig up Roman plumbing from the ruins of Hadrian's Wall. At present, we in the western world are fortunate to be living in one of the longest lasting eras of technical advancement and prosperity. However, there was no guarantee it would happen, no guarantee it would continue, and no guarantee it won't return to dust and fond memories like all of the empires before us.

Inevitable "Progress" is a myth. Our current situation is the result of divine favor or happy coincidence (depending upon how one looks at the world). Eithe way, its continuance is far from guaranteed.

Click to expand...

Impressive. You have a most impressive base of knowledge and a most realistic view of the world.

Elder-Basilisk said:

Assuming a bell curve distribution traditional in D&D, while 10 or 11 may indeed be the average score for any given stat, it's more likely that any given person will not have a 10 or 11 than that they will. One might further assume that people will tend to gravitate towards things that they do well. A blacksmith is likely to be stronger than a scribe. A scribe is likely to be smarter and more mentally developed than a nightsoil collector, etc, etc.

Click to expand...

I forget...what's the primary stat for a nightsoil collector?

When a thread causes a perennial lurker to reply, you know it's good. Thanks, all.

DB

Using my previous explanations, we have the following :

Depending on the terrain, each city region ranges from 500k-2 million acres. Basic rule is 50% of the land is arable (250k-1million acres), and 50% of the arable land is for foodstuffs (125k-500k acres). One third of the land has to lay fallow, which leaves us 84k-333k acres of staple foods.

Without magic augmentation, each farmer can work one acre and produce enough food for 3 people, giving us populations of 250k-1 million people. With magic augmenting the farming, 1.33 farmers can work each acre, each producing food for 3 people, giving us 336k-1.3 million total people.

Remember, that is at maximum saturation, with all land in production. Assuming you are at 50% max density and are halfway between the best and worst terrain, you have a "typical" region of around 400,000 people.

70% of the populace is rural, 30% urban, giving us a 280k/120k rural/urban distribution. Making a vague estimate that 15% of staples that would go to urban centers is used for trade or military supplies changes that to 280k/102k populations.

Out of the rural population, the majority are living in communities only two miles in diameter, with populations of 300 or less (Hamlets or Thorps) and the rest are in communities unlikely over 1000 (villages). I'd probably say about 60% are the smaller and 40% are the larger.

Rural population of 280,000
1120 Thorps (20% = 56,000 people @ 50people/thorpe )
466 Hamlets (40% = 112,000 people @ 240 people/hamlet)
172 Villages (40% = 112,000 people @ 650 people/village)

Urban cities could, in theory, be as large as London. It's more likely the urban population is broken up between the main city and multiple smaller cities. Terrain will ultimately control city size since you can't have a city bigger than the water supply or if there isn't as much farmland. As a general guideline, I'd suggest we follow the population system in the DMG: there are twice as many cities of the next smaller size. So a baseline metropolis would have two large cities, 4 small cities, 8 large towns , and 16 small towns with a population of 99,431.

Take your regional population and divide using the same ratios. For our 102k population we have:
1x Metropolis: 25,647
2x Large City: 12,311 people/city x2=24,622
4x Small City: 5,130 people/city x4 =20,520
8x Large Town: 2,052 people/town x8 = 16,421
16x Small Towns: 924 people/town x16 =14,788

Using the DMG's PC/NPC distribution we know that:
Thorps (containing 14% of the total population) usually have at least one caster, usually a druid, cleric or adept and, with the rare exception of a high level druid or ranger, do not have spell casters above 3rd level. Magic items, even potions and scrolls, are probably unavailable.

Hamlets (28% total population) are a bit better off, likely having both a divine and arcane caster present though neither reaches 5th level (again with the rare druids and rangers). A few common potions or scrolls will likely be available, though they are most likely to be divine healing magics. Expect to wait a day or two for them to be made.

Villages (28% total population) still have arcane casters of 3rd level or below, but divine casters can reach 5th level. Still, about 30% of the villages do not have any 5th level casters. There's a 75% chance you can find the simplest arcane scrolls and the basic healing potions are likely on hand, though not in any bulk.

At this point 70% of the populace is accounted for. Something on the order of 40% of the populace does not have immediate access to 3rd level spells. Less than 5% do *not* have casters in their community.

Small towns (4% of the population) are guaranteed to have more than one arcane and divine caster. Likely you'll have about 3 arcane casters and 10 divine casters. The odds are good that a 5th or 6th level caster lives there. Most low level scrolls and potions can be acquired. There's a decent chance a low-level wand can be commissioned from one of the priests.

Large Towns (4% of the total population) generally have more than a dozen arcane casters, one of which is 5th-7th level. There will be more than 40 divine casters, likely with one 7th-9th level. The majority of potions and scrolls can be had, though it may take a few days. The odds are good you can acquire the simplest magic weapons and armors and the most common wonderous items. Again, expect a wait.

Small Cities (5% of the total population) have 100+ arcane casters and 150+ divine casters with at least one 11th level caster with access to 5th level spells somewhere. Most magic armors can be acquired and a few special types of weapons can be acquired. Virtually all potions and most wands can be acquired in a few days. The vast majority of wonderous items can be had.

Large cities (6% of the total population) will see 600+ arcane casters and 1,000 divine casters. Expect a divine caster of 15th level and an arcane caster of 13th level. A wide variety of magic weapons, virtually all magic armors, potions, wands, wonderous items, and more than a few staves can be found.

The Metropolis (6% of the total populace) has around 2300 arcane casters (~15th level) and over 4,000 divine casters (~17th level). Virtually all but the most legendary magic weapons and armors can be had. All potions and wands can be had and only the most powerful scrolls prove hard to find. Staves and wonderous items of all kinds will be found within the walls.

So what's this mean to the commoner? Most of them know magic armors and weapons are within a singe day's walk. If you have the money, the bishop in one of the Cities can bring a murdered family member back to life. Odds are he sees minor illusions a few times a year at the smaller fairs and if he makes it to the Metropolis for the Grand Fair he will see some spectacle or miracle performed by the archmage or high priest.

On the flip side, the bulk of the populace will never visit someplace bigger than a Large Town more than once or twice since it would take several days away from work.

Everything they need or could want can be had within the Metropolis' domain. Out past the thorpes you reach the wilderness and the dangerous lands filled with monsters. Stories of the horrors out there make you happy to live in such a civilized land. Still, there are stories told by the old folks about the time something burrowed out of the ground and ate the town idiot or a bat-winged terror swooped down and stole an infant from a wagon.

Even if you braved the horrors, the towns are few and far apart because there isn't enough water or decent land, otherwise it would be cultivated. Why bother?

Consider how much is known about magic in the real world, albeit with magic not being real. How many people don't know you pull a rabbit out of a magician's hat? That garlic is effacious against vampires? That a silver bullet is needed against werewolves. Even now, a few nooks and crannies of the world have cultures that know more about magic than engineering. Go back several hundred years and many cultures are steeped in 'magic'. From some points of view, many religions are 'magical'.

And this is in a world where magic is (generally believed) not to be manifestly evident.

In a DnD world where the magic does manifest, the amount of knowledge about magic would be much greater although it would be laced with a lot of errors and the understanding would not be very deep.

On Earth, think how many people know of Excalibur - a magic sword that (probably ) didn't exist. Of course, in a DnD world where communication, particularly between cultures and over great distances, is poor, it would only be the local magic that is well known, if not understood. Every dwarf commoner would know the King wields the mighty Mithril Axe of Gromm, the royal weapon and that it is particularly potent against giants. Outside the dwarven kingdom, some commoners may have heard of the mighty weapon wielded by the dwarf king, but not the type of weapon or its name.

Then there is the magic of the Gods. Thor has his hammer as every Scandanavian knew and much of the world does now. In the DnD world commoners would also know the details of their Gods and their servants. They probably also know some details about other gods from bordering regions. They know the Evil Goddess Grantel whithers crops where ever she walks and her demons wield maces that can wither your arm.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't believe commoners know as much as PC's do about magic, but they certainly know more (if incorrectly) than is suggested.

Harry Turtledove has an epic series (The Darkness books) in which the amount of high-level magic is less than rarer than the typical D&D campaign. However, the amount of low- to mid-level magic is MUCH higher than D&D standard.

Imagine, as he did, a world in which the equivalent of WWII was fought with magic and mythic beasts instead of bombs and airplanes.

Instead of single mages flinging fireballs, large groups of mages cooperate to sacrifice people to release a wave of pure magical destructive energy.

Instead of footmen being equipped with crossbows or longbows, etc., they have "Sticks" that fire magical bolts of energy.

And even so, the average person cannot do major magic. In fact, the simple magic of D&D's "Change Self" is lost, only to be rediscovered by accident, and "Mending" and similar spells, while commonplace, is about as sophisticated as things get for the average craftsman...and is used sparingly, for special jobs.

Yet it is possible to buy a "still" box, a box in which time passes VERY slowly- used for both medical and food storage purposes.

Pervasiveness and knowlege of magic depends on how your world is designed.

But the knowlege of the practice of magic and a commoner's knowledge of magic would be 2 different things indeed.

Elder-Basilisk said:

Well, let's assume that most real midwives had heal skill. So that's a wash. What you're claiming would make the difference is Cure Light Wounds. And it would--provided that deadly childbirth does 1d8+1 damage. If deadly childbirth sometimes does 2d8+2 damage, it may be that a cure light wounds doesn't save women from death in childbirth. Or maybe, a breach birth actually does 1 point of damage per minute of labor. When does the priest cast the CLW? If he casts it too soon it might not save her. If he waits too long she might die. Given that hit point costs for specific injuries are rather difficult to actually quantify, and there are no mechanics for childbirth complications, I don't think it's possible to tell how many childbirth deaths cure light wounds would avert. The exact quantity of lives saved will vary greatly from campaign to campaign.

Click to expand...

I agree with your argument, which simply boils down to "because D&D is not specific about real world effects of its spells, how can one conclude that a particular spell will have a particular effect". This misses the point of my argument, which is that any world in which magic is as all-pervasive as it purports to be in D&D is exceedingly unlikely to look anything like some pseudo-medieval traditional fantasy world.

Elder=Basilisk said:

Maybe and maybe not. This assumes that the dangers are roughly the same as IRL. It's quite possible, however, that rampaging orcs, manticores, magic and the sacrifices required by mens' dark gods will keep the population growth in check. It could also be that the preying of vampires and other creatures who specifically feed on humans would keep populations in check.

A D&D world is undoubtedly full of many things that are more dangerous than anything our ancestors faced. The existence of magic and the social instability it might cause (as explored earlier in this thread) would also serve to reduce populations. So there might be an increasing population and there might not be. It's trivial to change the assumptions of the world to match whatever kind of population trends you want.

Click to expand...

Of course, the most dangerous thing our ancestors faced was the humble disease-causing antigen. It is naturally impossible to compare the demographic effects of smallpox or influenza to raiding goblins and assorted evil creatures extant in the "D&D world". What is most important to realise is that the very existence of creatures at least as intelligent as humans and with access to magic would have dramatic and far-reaching effects on the structure of human society - if such a society could even exist.

Elder-Basilisk said:

My, what a whiggish view of history we have here...
[edited for space]
Dude, "technology as technology" didn't naturally occur just because populations reached a certain density. IRL, it occurred in western Europe in the 18th century, most particularly in England and later in the United States. There are innumerable times and places where it didn't occur for various and sundry reasons...

At the end of this implausible paen to the inevitability of technological Progress, let's imagine the world 300 years after the first running water, flush toilets and showers were installed on the British Isles, massive roads were constructed, laws were formalized, etc. Oh, that's right. Three hundred years after all of that, this ragged guy (or clean-cut romanized celt) named Arcturos (or Arthur or something like that) was busy leading a group of warriors from Caer Camel or thereabouts to fight the saxon invaders on Mount Badon. Or at least, that's what the legends say. A thousand years after that, the saxons were standing around a hill at Hastings with shields and greataxes, waiting for the Norman knights to charge and break like water upon their shieldwall. Then a lucky arrow struck down their king. (Who, according to some reports, survived that arrow but was killed later in the battle). All the wonder and glory of Roman Britain turned to dust. History has been full of golden ages, conquering heros, progress and advancement. Most of thoe inheritors of the golden ages have descended into decadence and returned to barbarism. Most of those conquering heroes are food for the worms. Most of that ancient progress is forgotten only to be rediscovered in part by later civilizations at later times. We dig up Roman plumbing from the ruins of Hadrian's Wall. At present, we in the western world are fortunate to be living in one of the longest lasting eras of technical advancement and prosperity. However, there was no guarantee it would happen, no guarantee it would continue, and no guarantee it won't return to dust and fond memories like all of the empires before us.

Inevitable "Progress" is a myth. Our current situation is the result of divine favor or happy coincidence (depending upon how one looks at the world). Eithe way, its continuance is far from guaranteed.

Click to expand...

"Dude", thanks for the history lesson. It's always fun to extemporise from historical accidents - "turning points in history", so called - but then responding to the effect of "well that's bollocks because it's overly simplistic and makes unfounded assumptions" isn't very polite. To say that "we're lucky to be here; the chances of life emerging on this planet and evolving to a degree where it is capable of realising how infintesimally small the chances of its very existence really are, are infintesimally small," is not particularly insightful. To reiterate the central tenet of my argument, if magic is as prevalent in human society as the D&D literature suggests, the validity of that society remaining in some romanticised quasi-medieval state of development for any appreciable length of time needs to be seriously questioned. The "magic as technology" example is simply one example of what might occur, and what might occur in a very short time frame. The complication of the existence other intelligent life simply adds to one's reservations about the sustainability of the D&D "model".

Let me be clear on this. I play D&D because it's escapism. It's fantasy. I've attempted to rationalise some of the more significant consequences of abundant magic by running low-magic campaigns. Kamikaze Midget's view of the Average D&D Commoner and the classes and levels of the people around them is surprisingly similar to my own. But I don't try to analyse the society on a deep level because you very soon start asking "why does it look like this and not something completely different?".

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

Removed by author.

Al'Kelhar said:

I agree with your argument, which simply boils down to "because D&D is not specific about real world effects of its spells, how can one conclude that a particular spell will have a particular effect". This misses the point of my argument, which is that any world in which magic is as all-pervasive as it purports to be in D&D is exceedingly unlikely to look anything like some pseudo-medieval traditional fantasy world.

Click to expand...

So we all agree that there is no certainty on the spells effects on the world. Thus several different worlds are possible with the D&D level of magic. Let's keep that in mind and continue:

To reiterate the central tenet of my argument, if magic is as prevalent in human society as the D&D literature suggests, the validity of that society remaining in some romanticised quasi-medieval state of development for any appreciable length of time needs to be seriously questioned. The "magic as technology" example is simply one example of what might occur, and what might occur in a very short time frame. The complication of the existence other intelligent life simply adds to one's reservations about the sustainability of the D&D "model".

Click to expand...

Magic as technology is just one example of what might happen, okay. Since it was pointed above that the exact effects of magic on the world are pretty vague, couldn't that mean that medieval world is one of the possibilities, given the numerical 'evidence' in this thread?

Still, taking rules that mainly deal with dungeondelving with a party of four extraordinary heroes and extrapolating those to world at large is pretty dumb. Surely if ordinary life was the focus of the rules, more rules would've been provided do just that. Why would the majority of spells provided by gods be suitable mainly for adventuring when 99,99% any given gods followers are not adventurers (sans gods of adventuring)?

My suggestion is that take the rules for what they are - rules for doing adventuring, not simulating the world at large. Thats what they're used for 99% of the time, at least. Assume that 99% of the comings and goings in the world falls outside the rules. (Example: there are no rules for having children, which is one of the most important things in a normal society).

Raven Crowking]Things like curative spells would certainly make a difference to the average commoner's life. People would live longer, in general, and be healthier.

Click to expand...

I will point out that according to the PHB, accidents & disease excluded, the average person will live to about 90. In our world, old age claims people much closer to the 80s, so I think it could be said the default setting assumes magic has some impact on longevity. Even though low level priests don't have remove disease, they can provide buffs to help people throw off diseases.

Numion said:

Still, taking rules that mainly deal with dungeondelving with a party of four extraordinary heroes and extrapolating those to world at large is pretty dumb. Surely if ordinary life was the focus of the rules, more rules would've been provided do just that. Why would the majority of spells provided by gods be suitable mainly for adventuring when 99,99% any given gods followers are not adventurers (sans gods of adventuring)?

Click to expand...

Depends on what you mean by "majority of spells." If you buy the DMG's distribution of levels, the majority of casters are low levels. For every 17th level caster there are more than 256 1st level casters. That's actually in a given community, so worldwide there are probably closer to 1,000 1st level casters for each 17th.

Even with each neophyte casting a single spell per day, they by far cast the bulk of spells. And the 0th and 1st level spells are useful to the rank and file from a priestly standpoint. Guidance + Resistance can give +2 to saving throws, useful against diseases and poisons. Detect poison is very useful for identifying harmful spiders, snakes, and creatures. Detect (alignment) gives you insight into people's natures, Deathwatch helps you know who is worst injured, Comprehend Languages lets you be the local interpreter, Endure Elements means you can tend your flock even under horrible conditions, and with Command and Cause Fear you can be sure of standing up to the local bullies without causing them physical harm.

For services, Bless spell gives a nice warm, confident feeling and the Light spell is just generally spiffy for giving you that "spotlight" illumination. And, of course, there are the cure spells to keep people alive.

The higher level spells are closer to wonderous boons and only the upper ranked priests can do that.

I'd wager that about half the populace has seen at least a cure minor used to cause a cut to scab over or wipe out a serious bruise and most witness some form of magic on a monthly basis (be it a sermon or a show).

As to the commoner's relationship with the clergy, I imagine the tithe comes into play as it becomes your medical insurance. Tithe on a regular basis and the local priest (50% chance 1st level) will provide magical healing or ask for divine assistance against diseases and poisons. Fail to tithe and expect to pay, either in up-front coin (evil and some neutral clerics) or with a form of penance and future tithing.

The arcane casters (at least the bards and wizards) are more the local intellgentsia, providing information to the residents, a few minor parlor tricks, and probably getting by on the occassional sale of a scroll to travelers or during the fairs. They lead an apparent life of luxury by the rural standards, earning 10+gp from writing on a sheet of paper! (scribe scroll)

Odds are they also act as clerks and notaries during the harvest, calculating tallies and confirming tax payments. Wizard Mark provides an excellent mystical notary seal. He probably also gets commissioned to Wizard Mark stray animals and minor criminals.

kigmatzomat said:

As to the commoner's relationship with the clergy, I imagine the tithe comes into play as it becomes your medical insurance. Tithe on a regular basis and the local priest (50% chance 1st level) will provide magical healing or ask for divine assistance against diseases and poisons. Fail to tithe and expect to pay, either in up-front coin (evil and some neutral clerics) or with a form of penance and future tithing.

Click to expand...

I'd imagine pilgrimages are a fairly common form of penance. They also would provide an interesting assortment of NPCs for PCs to encounter along the roads and plot-hooks.

The arcane casters (at least the bards and wizards) are more the local intellgentsia, providing information to the residents, a few minor parlor tricks, and probably getting by on the occassional sale of a scroll to travelers or during the fairs. They lead an apparent life of luxury by the rural standards, earning 10+gp from writing on a sheet of paper! (scribe scroll)

Odds are they also act as clerks and notaries during the harvest, calculating tallies and confirming tax payments. Wizard Mark provides an excellent mystical notary seal. He probably also gets commissioned to Wizard Mark stray animals and minor criminals.

Click to expand...

I'm with you up to the stray animals and minor criminals. Notarizing taxes and harvest tallies is a wonderful use of Arcane Mark.

For stray animals, people really only care about livestock and for livestock, you need something that'll last longer than a month. Other strays either fit into the dangerous (wild dogs, wolves, etc) category which are killed and the mostly nondangerous category which meet with anything from adoption to benign neglect to conscious cruelty.

For criminals, arcane mark would only be used where it is intended to be temporary. Otherwise branding is cheaper, more permanent, and more painful, all of which are advantages when punishing criminals.