Getting ahead in combat, or opposed attack rolls and other variant combat rules.

I was just watching Fist of Legend, and in the climax the villain does one of those nifty "grab you, lift you, and then crack you across my knee" moves. I know that D&D combat is abstract, but I kinda wish the rules helped provide a way to create that same 'Oh dang I'm screwed' you'd get if you were caught in that situation. You've been outmaneuvered and outfought, and you're in for a world of hurt.

I'm not sure how to implement this in the existing rules. I'm not even sure how well it works in d20. I'd probably have to at least gut the current combat rules and put these in instead. I might not actually use the system, but it will be an interesting thought experiment.

I'm going to post this now and post a reply as ideas cook in my head.

RangerWickett said:

I was just watching Fist of Legend, and in the climax the villain does one of those nifty "grab you, lift you, and then crack you across my knee" moves.

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First attack: grapple - target grabbed
Second attack: pin - lift the sucker up
Third attack: damage - CRACK

Of course, this requires at least 3 attacks per round, so at least an 11th level level fighter. But then, it is the end of level monster. This also implies that most pro wrestlers are also 15th level fighters!? Although, it might just be that it takes them 3 combat rounds to complete the maneuver.

Bigwilly

Okay. We can approach this several ways. The first way will likely not be the simplest, but we'll pare things down to an elegant solution soon.

Idea One: Each round that attacker and defender stay within reach of each other, they make an opposed attack roll. Each time you win you get a cumulative +2 bonus to your attack rolls against that foe, but if you lose once things reset to neither side having a bonus. This encourages you to run away if things are going badly, and makes grappling a really juicy tactic if you can win several times in a row, since your opponent can't run away to negate the bonus.

Idea Two: Somehow we get rid of initiative. When two creatures engage in melee, they make opposed attack rolls. Oh, and we're going to have to change how AC works, because in this system how well you attack determines if you hit. So if you roll better, you get a +2 bonus to future attacks, as above. In order to deal damage you have to win by a margin equal to . . . ? Your opponent's Dexterity bonus and dodge bonuses? Hmm.

In both of these systems, when multiple people are on each side, they're all considered part of the same battle, so you make one roll for each side, with the person who has the best bonus making the roll, and each ally who beats DC 10 adding +2 to the primary roll. And maybe if they beat DC 20 they add +4? Hmm.

Just an idea. I wonder what people think. It could use a lot of work, I think.

Bigwilly said:

First attack: grapple - target grabbed
Second attack: pin - lift the sucker up
Third attack: damage - CRACK

Of course, this requires at least 3 attacks per round, so at least an 11th level level fighter. But then, it is the end of level monster. This also implies that most pro wrestlers are also 15th level fighters!? Although, it might just be that it takes them 3 combat rounds to complete the maneuver.

Bigwilly

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The issue here, though, is that an attack after a pin does no more damage than a normal melee attack. I'm not sure if it can work, but I want to see if there's a way to make you deal more damage after winning a few opposed checks or something.

Ah, now I see!

RangerWickett said:

The issue here, though, is that an attack after a pin does no more damage than a normal melee attack. I'm not sure if it can work, but I want to see if there's a way to make you deal more damage after winning a few opposed checks or something.

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Won't work on the same round, but you could rule that if you have someone pinned and the unarmed combat feat, then as a full round action you can make a coup de grace attempt or if that's too much then automatically do double damage (like for charging or similar).

Bigwilly

RangerWickett said:

The issue here, though, is that an attack after a pin does no more damage than a normal melee attack. I'm not sure if it can work, but I want to see if there's a way to make you deal more damage after winning a few opposed checks or something.

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Second World Sims has a book called Masters of Arms ...

http://www.second-world-simulations.com/Masters of Arms.htm

It has rules for what it calls "Combination Attacks". Basically, you perform a series of attack or actions and as you do you accumulate bonuses (assuming you keep succeeding) so that when you finally do the last attack, you do extra damage. So, for our example, you might force the attacker to make a touch attack, a grapple check, a strength check (to lift the dude) and then, finally, do triple unarmed damage. The bonus damage can also be things like Fort save to avoid stunning or blindness etc.


Aaron

Bigwilly said:

First attack: grapple - target grabbed
Second attack: pin - lift the sucker up
Third attack: damage - CRACK

Of course, this requires at least 3 attacks per round...

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You could try the Rolemaster conditional follow-up attack paradigm which they use for animals.
In this particular case, it would be something like:

Grab -> BackBreaker

Meaning the attack you initiate is a Grab, and you may maintain the Grab with regular Grab rules.
However, anytime you make a successful Grab attack, you may follow it up with your "BackBreaker" attack. In this case, dropping them over your knee.
Since your "BackBreaker" is a separate type of attack make up stats for it (i.e., amount of damage).

Since D20 doesn't automatically support follow-up attacks except in specific ways (e.g., the wolf Trip ability), in order to do this it'd probably cost you a Feat, maybe generically called "Single Follow-Up Attack".
Depending on how much more damage you want the follow-up attack to have compared to your regular ability to dish out damage, the DM may require another feat for the follow-up attack.

Grail Quest
http://www.freewebs.com/d20elements

RangerWickett said:

I was just watching Fist of Legend, and in the climax the villain does one of those nifty "grab you, lift you, and then crack you across my knee" moves. I know that D&D combat is abstract, but I kinda wish the rules helped provide a way to create that same 'Oh dang I'm screwed' you'd get if you were caught in that situation. You've been outmaneuvered and outfought, and you're in for a world of hurt.

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You get the 'Oh I'm losing' feel when you run low on hit points.

Geoff.