Fallen Celestials / Risen Fiends

Gez said:

Now, actions may be good in appearance but actually evil, true. But there must be quite a backstory behind it, then; one that at the end of the campaign (or sooner, as appropriate) is revealed, otherwise it's frustrating for the players.

Click to expand...

A'kin probably has the most twisted, complex backhistory of any character I've ever used in a campaign. My players didn't solidly know what his alignment was till after the campaign itself was over. I <3 A'kin.

I really prefer the term "fallen" for fiends as well, just like Fall-From-Grace.

In particular if we're talking about fiends that have fallen from their ordinary vocations, but not risen to the status of celestials.

I think that the celestials generally are more unforgiving than fiends, and so truly "risen" fiends should be very rare, if they exist at all.
Fiends that have fallen from absolute evil, on the other hand, are interesting.

The following "risen" fiends have appeared in official sources:

Krell, arcanaloth.

Exiled by her kind and stripped of her powers. "There's even a slim chance that she could reform and begin to work for the cause of good - 'cept she'll keep it up only until she can regain her old power as an evil being."

Source: Well of Worlds, 62 and 71.

Nalura, erinyes.

Tried to corrupt an angel while the angel tried to turn her to good. They both succeeded, in a way. The two antithetical beings fell in love and are curently living in Karasuthra in the Beastlands, disguised as an evil succubus and a dragon. They're expecting a child.

Source: Planes of Chaos, Liber Benevolentiae, 26.

K'rand Vahlix, hamatula.

Killed his cornugon superior and fled to Bytopia. Now a do-gooder who organizes other reformed fiends into the celestial armies, coordinating missions where they work with archons, aasimon and the like. Presumedly LE --> LG.

Sources: Faces of Evil: The Fiends, 33.

The Dreamer Prime, night hag

The Dreamer Prime is a night hag of neutral alignment. She considers herself to be beyond good and evil, concerned only with the secrets of dreams and dreaming. She runs a cult called the Guild of Sleep, a group of fevered, drug-dependent spellcasters who believe that the truths of the multiverse can be found in the dreamworld.

Source: Bastion of Broken Souls

Abaia, bebelith.

CE --> NG. The astral deva Ybdiel gave up the "spark" that caused him to radiate Good, entrusting it to a mortal called Fachan, who died shortly afterwards, becoming a petitioner, who is devoured by the bebelith, who the deva spark slowly transforms or allows to transform.

Source: The Deva Spark, page 4.

Felthis ap Jerran, ultroloth

(NG, risen ultroloth) Felthis is the new Philosopher King of Ecstasy.

Source: Dragon #351

I've toyed with the idea of a LN ( maybe even LG) Harvester devil.

In the Fiendish Codex II, there is a short section on the Diabolical Courts, where individuals can dispute the legitimacy of their Faustian bargains. It mentions that, if they have no legal representation of their own, an erinyes or harvester devil is appointed to serve as their lawyer. I figure that the soul's lawyer will probably be loyal to an archdevil other than the one who would claim the soul, so as to provide some motivation for the fiend.

So, what if there was a fluke in some infernal scheduling paperwork, and a harvester devil spent a few millenia working on behalf of souls trying to avoid an eternity of damnation. He could (perhaps with some subtle outside help) eventually begin to take their side, especially if he begins to conflate "the prosecution" with his archdevil's rival. Eventually his regard for a fair trial and his hatred of, say, Baalzebul, overwhelms his inherent sadism and even his loyalty to Mephistopheles.

Of course, once the shift to LN occurs, it's only a matter of time before the secret police of Baator turn him into a Nupperibo. I figure at this point, just as the harvester devil is about to be dragged off for reprogramming, a small squadron of particularly daring Archons (the grateful souls that he had succesfully saved from damnation) swoop in and spirit him away to Mechanus. Once there, he whiles away the centuries familiarizing himself with the legal codes of a thousand empires, dodging the occasional vengeful devil, and helping adventurers who seek him out for obscure legal advice.

Henrix said:

I think that the celestials generally are more unforgiving than fiends...

Click to expand...

So, in your campaign world, mercy is a trait of evil beings?

Some of the consequences of this might be that evil tyrants have names like 'Ming the Merciful' while benign kings are given names like 'Arthur the Merciless'? Respected teachers go about saying, "When your neighbor strikes you, strike him twice as hard back!" When a Paladin is asked how many times he should pardon his brother he says, "Even if your brother begs your pardon seven times seventy times, never forgive, never forget!" Crime lords meanwhile forgive insults and betrayals against them, and megalomaniacs shrug when someone slights them.

It seems to me that if celestials are less merciful than fiends, that they are also more evil than fiends.

Immak Antunel said:

I've toyed with the idea of a LN ( maybe even LG) Harvester devil...I figure at this point, just as the harvester devil is about to be dragged off for reprogramming, a small squadron of particularly daring Archons (the grateful souls that he had succesfully saved from damnation) swoop in and spirit him away to Mechanus. Once there, he whiles away the centuries familiarizing himself with the legal codes of a thousand empires, dodging the occasional vengeful devil, and helping adventurers who seek him out for obscure legal advice.

Click to expand...

That's the more interesting and sensible explanations I've heard on the subject of 'not-quite-so-fallen' fiends.

Celebrim said:

Contrary to some claims, I don't think a universe were nothing is alien and everything is basically human is more complex in its conception than one where alien things 'outsiders' are in thier basic nature alien.

Click to expand...

So 'outsiders' must either be incapable of choice or they are basically human? I submit that this is a false dichotomy.

Fiends in D&D are, by and large, neither fallen celestials nor are they particularly anthropomorphic in their mindset. They do not think or act like people, but the lack of free will is not one of the many ways in which they are unlike people.

They are alien because they are the personifications of various philosophies, reified evil, chaos, or law. They are ideas with minds and teeth. Not only do they exist to propagate the ideas they represent, but they are those ideas.

As a result, both "fallen" celestials and "risen" fiends are impossibly rare - certainly far rarer than a mortal making a similar change in views. But they do happen because on occasion ideas can be twisted or corrupted, conflicted between means and ends or afflicted with the curse called Love. For a fiend to rise or a celestial to fall, their very composition is altered by the tension between what they are and what they are beginning to believe. And there is no reason for the fallen to outnumber the risen, other than general pessimism.

Your point that divorcing the material from its mythic roots gives it less emotional power has a lot of truth in it, but the theology you describe is so esoteric that I think it adds nothing to the visceral emotional response such characters incite. Making fiends incapable of redemption doesn't make a game feel more mythic because this isn't a part of most peoples' theological or literary background, and it's not the universal view (and I think there's more than a little sophistry in the argument you recounted in any case - angels decided to fall with full knowledge of the eventual result? Really? Lake of fire and final destruction after Armegeddon and all?). It's such a counterintuitive bit of theological wankery that I think, if anything, it detracts from the experience.

Don't get me wrong, Celebrim, I thought your post was fascinating to read, but I don't agree with your conclusions.

The sort of mythology that adds to the experience isn't theological esoterica, but evocative names and powerful themes - the Fall is one such theme, and as a result including fallen celestials as NPCs can be a great addition to the game. But redemption is an equally powerful theme, and that shouldn't be forgotten.

Sammael said:

Now, THAT's what was missing from the article. Thank you!

Click to expand...

The start of the first meeting with Felthis Ap Jerran in my storyhour can be found in this portion of the storyhour . Just follow the link and do a search for the following text: Irredeemable son of a b*tch

That's about where the section with the tormented, imprisoned risen 'loth begins. His tormentors are a bit above that, and the contrast between the non-risen ultroloth there and the redeemed ultroloth a short bit of text later is pretty stark.

Celebrim said:

So, in your campaign world, mercy is a trait of evil beings?

Click to expand...

You are confounding mercy with forgiving, or rather merciless with unforgiving. They are different words, you know, with different meanings. You can show mercy without forgiving, and vice versa.

I have no trouble with fiends forgiving the fallen angel for having done good, but I'm hard pressed to see the angels forgiving a fiend for having done evil.

Mercy has nothing to do with it.

Paladins and their ilk are stuck-up snobs, demons and devils more laissez-faire.

The angels might show the fallen fiend mercy, sure, by allowing him to mend his ways, but they'll not forgive him and make him one of them.

Ripzerai said:

So 'outsiders' must either be incapable of choice or they are basically human? I submit that this is a false dichotomy.

Click to expand...

Indeed. I submit that this is a false dichotomy too.

I don't recall saying just how an outsider needs to be inhuman. I just simply stated that its more interesting if they aren't merely people with wierd bodies. As you point out, there are any number of ways we can achieve that.

Furthermore, you failed to understand the argument I outlined completely if you think I suggested that demons and devils lack free will.

They are alien because they are the personifications of various philosophies, reified evil, chaos, or law. They are ideas with minds and teeth. Not only do they exist to propagate the ideas they represent, but they are those ideas.

Click to expand...

Quite.

As a result, both "fallen" celestials and "risen" fiends are impossibly rare - certainly far rarer than a mortal making a similar change in views. But they do happen because on occasion ideas can be twisted or corrupted, conflicted between means and ends or afflicted with the curse called Love.

Click to expand...

When does incarnated wrath love? When does incarnated hate love? It is impossible for wrath and hate to love. It is impossible for incarnated pain to feel joy. If it feels joy, if its even capable of feeling joy, its no longer incarnated pain.

Your point that divorcing the material from its mythic roots gives it less emotional power has a lot of truth in it, but the theology you describe is so esoteric that I think it adds nothing to the visceral emotional response such characters incite.

Click to expand...

That word you use - esoteric. The lack of it is precisely my complaint.

I think there's more than a little sophistry in the argument you recounted in any case - angels decided to fall with full knowledge of the eventual result? Really? Lake of fire and final destruction after Armegeddon and all?).

Click to expand...

I suppose sophistry is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but well, in a word, "Yes." You've read your Milton. "Better to..."

It's such a counterintuitive bit of...

Click to expand...

I find that at the least, there is alot of interesting points to ponder in not dismissing things simply because they are counterintuitive. We live in a universe that functions in demonstratably counterintuitive ways. It would hardly be surprising to find, that if the universe were created by some higher power, that it would function in counterintuitive ways as well.

Don't get me wrong, Celebrim, I thought your post was fascinating to read, but I don't agree with your conclusions.

Click to expand...

LOL. You have every right to disagree. If I didn't think anyone was going to disagree with me, I'd not bother posting, because no one would be learning anything and I would be wasting my time. So disagree. Disagree passionately if you have to. There's a chance one of us would learn something, and that's the only reason to bother being here IMO.

The sort of mythology that adds to the experience isn't theological esoterica, but evocative names and powerful themes - the Fall is one such theme, and as a result including fallen celestials as NPCs can be a great addition to the game. But redemption is an equally powerful theme, and that shouldn't be forgotten.

Click to expand...

Sure. I just wish people would put a little more thought in it. Name dropping without the accompanying creativity is like vandalizing a great artwork in order to hang a bit of it over a urinal. I'm a programmer by training. In language as in programming, there is nothing worse than a null pointer - that description that seems to address something but turns out to hold only vacuity. Ripping off a name that holds mythic power is more marketing than art if you don't respect the reason the name came to hold power in the first place.