RangerWickett
Legend
I'm trying to stat up 'military units' as individual creatures, and I know that some book had rules for a 'mob template,' but I don't have those rules. Can someone give me an overview of how it works? Thanks?
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How does the Mob template work in 3.5?
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
roguerouge
First Post
And it's in the DMGII.
frankthedm
First Post
That also negates cleave, greatcleave and whirlwind. Area attacks that should decimate those grouping of creatures now do only semi noticeable damage against 30 HD worth of hit points. It is like the angry mob became an angry blob.
If you saw the episode of Drawn Together where the sweat shop workers fuse together into a giant monster, you’ve got an idea how DMG2 mobs work.
That’s exactly who D&D characters are supposed to be like. Feats like Great cleave and Whirlwind attack are specifically for defeating hordes of lesser foes.
Only if the mob member are really fat. The D20 system seems to allow for allows for 5 folks to be grappling in one square, see multiple Grapplers. And since there are 60 medium critters in one mob, 3 mob-ites to a square sounds about right meaning 24 sets of enemy hands are playing grab-ass.
The Mob Template makes the group a 30 HD, gargantuan, trampling, engulfing blob. It takes 50% more damage from area effects, but that’s no consolation to the fighter who has had his armor, shield, Cleave, Great cleave and Whirlwind attack negated since it is now counted as one creature that deals auto-damage.
roguerouge said:
Running away.
BryonD
Hero
FWIW,
I thought this was much better take on mob templates
RPGNow.com - Throwing Dice Games - Notebook Essentials: Swarms, Stampedes, and Skirmishes
I thought this was much better take on mob templates
RPGNow.com - Throwing Dice Games - Notebook Essentials: Swarms, Stampedes, and Skirmishes
roguerouge
First Post
Generally, people house rule extra damage for melee folk with cleave, great cleave, and whirlwind attack, for precisely the reason you observe.
But, yes, I think the problem is the grapple scenario, as it is unstoppable, which is a shame. After all, the reason for the templates is precisely to give players of melee characters a feeling of being Conan. For the OP, however, he can rule that trained soldiers (or even militia) are not going to throw away their weapons and grapple, even if that is the mechanically superior option.
But, yes, I think the problem is the grapple scenario, as it is unstoppable, which is a shame. After all, the reason for the templates is precisely to give players of melee characters a feeling of being Conan. For the OP, however, he can rule that trained soldiers (or even militia) are not going to throw away their weapons and grapple, even if that is the mechanically superior option.
Jeff Wilder
First Post
That's not my impression at all. When I saw the rules for mobs, my very first thought was, "No more taking huge crowds of mooks for granted." While there are problems with the implementation, I think mobs do what they're supposed to do ... threaten even powerful characters with fire and pitchforks and tar and feathering. The very last thing they're supposed to do is make PCs feel like Conan ... unless you mean those times even Conan ran from mobs.
roguerouge
First Post
I'll rephrase.
You don't feel like Conan when the DM takes five minutes to roll a d20 for every mook on the battlefield. That's just really, really boring.
You feel like Conan when you kill lots of mooks on your turn, the DM makes a quick roll, then you kill tons of mooks, then the DM makes a roll, then you kill some more and they just... keep... coming!
And then, when this rapid-fire scene ends with you feeling challenged as a player—and excited due to the pacing—while your character's banged up but still breathing and has proved himself to be as mighty as 40 men...
That's when you feel mighty.
And the intersection of grapple and mob rules totally ruins that. Because now, 20 commoners without even pitchforks can take you down. How deflating. And being a fighter is deflating enough.
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
You guys seem to be talking at cross-purposes.
One of you wants to be able to beat the stuffing out of high level characters. "Even though your character is high level, you should _never_ take it for granted that you'll be able to stomp something."
The other is cheering on mook rules, and how that can make a player feel bad-ass as they mow through people.
I think the "mob" approach is going to work just fine for Jeff, since he wants to inspire fear.
roguerouge should really be looking at "mook" rules. I guess mook rules could be kinda implemented through some sort of template, but my gut instinct is that mooks aren't a template. Main reason being that templates are adding a bunch of abilities and so forth to a creature(s). Whereas mook rules are sidestepping the "normal" rules (which a templated creature in theory is following) and going for a faster and simplified version. The faster and simplified version of resolving hits, damage, and so forth is what allows for that "I am MIGHTY!!!" kind of thing that using mooks promotes.
Mobs are almost a force of nature and it's difficult for a single (or small) group of people to stand against them.
Edit:
Take a look here for some ideas to get more of what you seem to be looking for roguerouge:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/208523-mook-rules.html
I personally like the approach that Tonguez takes, but I go a step further. The HD of the creature provides the initial BaB. For every additional [number you pick] mooks, add +1 to the BaB. Damage is the same. You're not rolling a die for each member of the group, it's a single roll for each group. When the appropriate number of hits has been scored, remove a member of the group.
A mook group can be scared off by doing an intimidation check. Base should be something like 10+ 1 for each member of the group. If you want to make the players feel big, you can have the group make something like a rout check; decide what the mooks base morale would be, and then apply a penalty for every casualty they've taken in combat.
One of you wants to be able to beat the stuffing out of high level characters. "Even though your character is high level, you should _never_ take it for granted that you'll be able to stomp something."
The other is cheering on mook rules, and how that can make a player feel bad-ass as they mow through people.
I think the "mob" approach is going to work just fine for Jeff, since he wants to inspire fear.
roguerouge should really be looking at "mook" rules. I guess mook rules could be kinda implemented through some sort of template, but my gut instinct is that mooks aren't a template. Main reason being that templates are adding a bunch of abilities and so forth to a creature(s). Whereas mook rules are sidestepping the "normal" rules (which a templated creature in theory is following) and going for a faster and simplified version. The faster and simplified version of resolving hits, damage, and so forth is what allows for that "I am MIGHTY!!!" kind of thing that using mooks promotes.
Mobs are almost a force of nature and it's difficult for a single (or small) group of people to stand against them.
Edit:
Take a look here for some ideas to get more of what you seem to be looking for roguerouge:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/208523-mook-rules.html
I personally like the approach that Tonguez takes, but I go a step further. The HD of the creature provides the initial BaB. For every additional [number you pick] mooks, add +1 to the BaB. Damage is the same. You're not rolling a die for each member of the group, it's a single roll for each group. When the appropriate number of hits has been scored, remove a member of the group.
A mook group can be scared off by doing an intimidation check. Base should be something like 10+ 1 for each member of the group. If you want to make the players feel big, you can have the group make something like a rout check; decide what the mooks base morale would be, and then apply a penalty for every casualty they've taken in combat.
Last edited:
roguerouge
First Post
What I want is a mob template that's a challenge to a fighter, not an auto-kill nor a laborious walk in the park.
The problem with the Ars Ludi suggestion is that the DM is still rolling a ton of dice and slowing the game down. The idea of a swarm and automatic damage is a huge time-saver that's intuitive and improves pacing. The problem with the DMGII approach is that it not only makes no sense, it makes for bad game play, despite those two advantages.
First off, one 5d6 fireball should utterly decimate a mob of commoners (20' space) as it disables each individual in the mob automatically. Instead, it merely does 26.25 [(5d6)*1.5] on average to an entity with 135 HP. And its save is +9. And it doesn't because "of the mob's mentality and physical mass." Any enterprising player hearing that is immediately going to hire 20' space worth of commoners for his next dungeon crawl. And no matter what happens to them, he'll get 70 percent of them back.
Second, +34 to grapple is just a bad idea for game play reasons. The mob template should work for soldiers, but doesn't, because a smart general would instruct his soldiers to throw their swords at the enemy and then grapple them.
Third, as stated, the melee feats that are designed to work against a mess of low HP combatants should not suddenly be taken away from the fighter. That's just unfair.
DMs should eliminate the grapple option for mobs as a house rule. They already get a nearly identical ability by doing 5d6 bludgeoning to anything they end their turn on, plus they have the option to bull rush, overrun and trample. Nothing's lost for flavor and you solve one of the two major problems with mob rules.
How you solve the fireball problem, I don't know.
The problem with the Ars Ludi suggestion is that the DM is still rolling a ton of dice and slowing the game down. The idea of a swarm and automatic damage is a huge time-saver that's intuitive and improves pacing. The problem with the DMGII approach is that it not only makes no sense, it makes for bad game play, despite those two advantages.
First off, one 5d6 fireball should utterly decimate a mob of commoners (20' space) as it disables each individual in the mob automatically. Instead, it merely does 26.25 [(5d6)*1.5] on average to an entity with 135 HP. And its save is +9. And it doesn't because "of the mob's mentality and physical mass." Any enterprising player hearing that is immediately going to hire 20' space worth of commoners for his next dungeon crawl. And no matter what happens to them, he'll get 70 percent of them back.
Second, +34 to grapple is just a bad idea for game play reasons. The mob template should work for soldiers, but doesn't, because a smart general would instruct his soldiers to throw their swords at the enemy and then grapple them.
Third, as stated, the melee feats that are designed to work against a mess of low HP combatants should not suddenly be taken away from the fighter. That's just unfair.
DMs should eliminate the grapple option for mobs as a house rule. They already get a nearly identical ability by doing 5d6 bludgeoning to anything they end their turn on, plus they have the option to bull rush, overrun and trample. Nothing's lost for flavor and you solve one of the two major problems with mob rules.
How you solve the fireball problem, I don't know.
