D&D 5E "But Wizards Can Fly, Teleport and Turn People Into Frogs!"

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And, well... that's what 4e does! Everyone can contribute usefully in combat, but they all do different things - even within classes, characters can feel useful while still operating differently. Add on top of that, a defender isn't always going to be as useful as a striker, sometimes you'll want crowd control instead of pure damage, &c. IOW, not equally useful in all situations.
And while I'm somewhat skeptical that that's the case, I'm not saying definitively that it isn't. That isn't the point.

The question is what was the total effect of the changes, and what could be done better. Another question is whether it isn't the case in any other edition and is exclusively a feature of 4e, and thus whether certain 4e approaches are really necessary.
 

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Like whether or not Fighters and Wizards place the same,

See and this right here illustrates why lots of people dont like 4e and why 4e players will never seem to get it. The phrasing, as if its a race and every single class has to hit the finish at the same time, or have the exact same value in a combat round. People who like 4e would probably say yes to both of those. So 4e "fixed" that problem.

But to the rest of us, no, they dont have to finish at the same time or have the same value in every single combat round. So your "fix" is crapping on things we liked before.

And theres just no coming together on it. They are incompatible visions of D&D. No amount of scene framing, re-fluffing, or splat book buying will make them compatible. But those are all the things we ever hear in defense of it.


For me wizards are magical. They absolutely should be able to do all sorts of crazy stuff that can not be matched in non-magical ways. And I dont care one bit if at high levels that makes them more powerful then other classes. Not only am i absolutely okay with that but I consider it a positive on the game, the fluff, settings, pretty much everything from top to bottom.
 

And theres just no coming together on it. They are incompatible visions of D&D. No amount of scene framing, re-fluffing, or splat book buying will make them compatible. But those are all the things we ever hear in defense of it.
What you see as "defense" I see as talking about D&D with people on a D&D message board. I'm discussing D&D, not valiantly standing between 4e and all attackers. I have a right to disagree with peoples' opinions about 4e just as much as you or anyone else has a right to disagree with me about 3e.

For me wizards are magical. They absolutely should be able to do all sorts of crazy stuff that can not be matched in non-magical ways. And I dont care one bit if at high levels that makes them more powerful then other classes. Not only am i absolutely okay with that but I consider it a positive on the game, the fluff, settings, pretty much everything from top to bottom.
Right, and I absolutely get it, and held similar opinions back in (especially) my 2e days; you should see some of the nonsense campaign settings I assembled back in those days with stuff like Wizards who were immune to weapons. (Not making this up.) I just disagree with it now - for me the "game" part of an RPG is half the reason we're all sitting around the table every Wednesday exploring the catacombs beneath the Blue Shrine. The narrative and story are the other half, and both are (IMO) equal; I want the gameplay to be fun in and of itself in addition to the adventure part. It's one of the reasons I like Savage Worlds so much.

I just don't think it's particularly good game design to have this kind of power disparity, and I don't like what it does to the game from my own history with 3.x in particular. (Remember, like quite a lot of other current 4e players, I ran 3.x for its entire 8-year run before the game was retired, taking more regular breaks as my problems with the edition wore on. I have many fewer problems with it in 1e and RC, because of other balancing factors, and I generally think both are much better-designed at their cores, though every edition has issues.)

I understand and know that other people disagree, but just like you (and others with similar views) have no problems engaging me on the issue, I'll engage as well.

-O
 

You're conflating balance with sameness and equality. It isn't. Balance is about providing options that are worth taking, not taking away options or making sure everything is exactly equal. And for a /very/ large portion of the people who have played D&D, combat is a major component of the game - I've never heard anyone talk about a D&D campaign that didn't feature combat as a central feature. If the combat doesn't work, the game doesn't work.

And, again, why does one character (the spellcaster) have to be /better/ than another of equal level, especially by one of the most important metrics of the game (Combat)? If you want casters to be better than noncasters, give 'em bonus levels and/or cap noncasters at a lower level. All you get if they're unbalanced at equal levels is that the game is harder to work with from the DM's side and unsatisfying mechanically for a nontrivial portion of the player base.
 

I just don't think it's particularly good game design...
I understand and know that other people disagree, but just like you (and others with similar views) have no problems engaging me on the issue, I'll engage as well.
And, again, why does one character (the spellcaster) have to be /better/ than another of equal level, especially by one of the most important metrics of the game (Combat)? If you want casters to be better than noncasters, give 'em bonus levels and/or cap noncasters at a lower level. All you get if they're unbalanced at equal levels is that the game is harder to work with from the DM's side and unsatisfying mechanically for a nontrivial portion of the player base.
I guess I don't understand where this expectation originated. I mean, I can't think of any genre fiction where there's any semblance of balance between different different types of characters. Nor am I aware of any other rpgs that emphasize that premise to the extent we're talking about here. The idea that the choice to learn how to use magic or to pursue adventuring without it should be equal in an rpg (not the same, just equal) seems to be almost exclusively confined to a portion of D&D players.

If we were playing Lord of the Rings (a touchstone for most D&D players), no one would complain that wizards and rangers aren't equal, let alone the commoners at the center of the story. But even beyond that, if we were playing Star Trek, the engineer class would be able to do anything with time, the command officer class would tell everyone else what to do, and the security officer class would just be good with phasers. If we were playing Law and Order, no one would complain that the lawyers are better than the police (or vice versa).

That's the story angle, but from a game angle the same is true. In any game that posits meaningfully different roles, those roles are almost never balanced. In any given team sport, some positions are more important than others, and some require more skill or ability than others. In Command and Conquer, some units are better than others. In miniatures wargames, some pieces are better than others.

So again, the expectation that two completely different D&D classes should be equal across all levels doesn't have much precedent. Again, I'd agree that it's a nontrivial portion that has this concern, but I just don't understand where this perspective is coming from, or why it seems to override other concerns so readily. I mean, I like when things are balanced, but only where a number of other goals are satisfied first.

You're conflating balance with sameness and equality. It isn't. Balance is about providing options that are worth taking, not taking away options or making sure everything is exactly equal.
It isn't an absolute, but the 4e concept of class design is a big step towards "sameness". It's not at the point where everyone has the same mechanics and you just describe them differently, but it's closer to that by far than any other version of D&D, and that's jarring. The merits of that step are what we're discussing.

And for a /very/ large portion of the people who have played D&D, combat is a major component of the game - I've never heard anyone talk about a D&D campaign that didn't feature combat as a central feature. If the combat doesn't work, the game doesn't work.
Well, no one's arguing that point. I do, however, wonder if you're implying that prior to 4e combat didn't work (for everyone, for some people, or even just for you). I mean D&D has been going for quite a while without striving for or achieving 4e-style balance, and yet has been balanced in other ways and for other purposes. Was it wrong to do so?

Or are you merely suggesting that incremental balance improvements are part of the natural evolution of the game (which I agree with).
 

Subjective opinions can still be educated or uneducated; informed or ill-informed. Since I have no stake in what you personally care for, my main interest is whether or not your opinion has any interesting insights I could share. If it's not an informed opinion, it has lower weight.
Right, but let's say you have a friend that doesn't like chocolate. If asked if chocolate mousse will be okay for him, and I say "I haven't tried it, but I don't like chocolate, and I wouldn't eat it," would you dismiss that? I share the experience of not liking chocolate. Like I mentioned earlier, do I need to physically experience being shot to know I'd dislike it, since I've already experienced pain?
I've never played Vampire, but want to know if I should give it a shot. The positive and negative opinions from people who have played it are a lot more meaningful than the ones from people who've just read the book or who are going off crazy forum discussions. So if I'm deciding whether or not to play, the first group - positive and negative both - have weight. The last group's opinions are not just meaningless but much more likely to be misleading or wrong.
What if we're talking about specifics? Like, you say "I want a game with combat at the forefront, and I don't like games death spirals." If you then read the rules, and saw that death spirals are part of the game, can you not tell that you're going to be disappointed with the game? People extrapolate from personal experience all the time. How is experience with every different system necessary to know what you like and dislike in gaming?
And if I said something like, "No, there are no rules for playing a Hopping Vampire in the game," you'd probably correct me if I was wrong, even if it was in a later supplement.
Couldn't anybody that read and understood the rules say this? Why is experience necessary? Just recently, manbearcat thought I didn't understand something because I hadn't played 4e, yet I showed that wasn't the case, and even pointed out how page 42 seemingly doesn't work the way he used it (by expending encounter powers to perform encounter-level damage), which even if he doesn't change, does show one can look at the rules, without playing, and totally understand what's going on.
Much like with Go, my position is that vast parts of 4e emerge during gameplay and can't be intuited through just reading the rules.
I don't like your general statement here. The "can't" really ruins it for me. Maybe "seemingly doesn't for most people" might make me feel better about it.
Like whether or not Fighters and Wizards place the same, and how healing surges work in play. Broad mathematical concepts, sure. And a few other bits. But not all of it, and it's almost a truism at this point that 4e players will tell you it plays better than it reads. And that's why I think it's fair to question Ahnehnois's knowledge.
Well, I also don't think you can objectively comment on how something will "feel" to someone. But, yeah, I think experiencing something will give you more insight into it. But I think people can easily know their dislikes before trying it, based on experiencing similar things. As always, play what you like :)
 

It allows them to impose bonuses and penalties to attacks, restore hit points, and otherwise affect the structure that I was describing.
Well, you did include "etc" in your discussion of structures - but how much ground is that meant to cover?

In 4e, "martial effects" include moving allies, moving enemies, weakening, slowing, dazing, stunning, marking, etc. As well as nuerical buffs and debuffs, and damage and healing.
 

Well, you did include "etc" in your discussion of structures - but how much ground is that meant to cover?
I was vague in my post, but when I said basic, I meant things that don't show up in a class description, but (mostly) in the combat chapter: the language used to describe what any character is, where he is, how he is doing, what he can do.
 

I think the expectation comes from a couple of areas. One is that a lot of fiction based on teams of whatever sort spreads out focus between the characters. That's really hard to do in a game if one character can mechanically overshadow others.

It also comes from the fact that this is a game and a story, and therefore if I'm playing I want what I'm doing to matter both mechanically and storywise. Like I said before, if the wizard can do everything I can, or can do things in such a way that what I'm doing doesn't really matter, I'm not going to enjoy it.

Re: LotR, I'd argue Gandalf isn't a PC (or else is at a much higher level), and the commoners (presumably, you mean the hobbits?) would just start at a lower level than everyone else. The wizards are more powerful because they've more power (read:higher level), not because they're wizards. :/

So, it's not about equality at all. I just want to be able to choose a character, and have that choice matter. In 3.x, I felt like I had to choose a spellcaster or it wouldn't, despite my preference for martially-themed characters. (As an aside, I also didn't like that martial classes were locked out of the stuff I found mechanically interesting - I prefer spellcaster in 3.x playwise, but the character concepts I wanted to play were all noncasters. In fact, I've tried several times to stat up noncasters as casters with a new coat of paint.)

Finally, I /would/ say pre-4e combat (or, more specifically, 3.x/PF combat, that being what I'm familiar with) didn't work, at least from the DM side of things. Definitely for me, and evidently for a lot of other people. I ran a year-long Pathfinder campaign where I got tired of how difficult it was to make an exciting combat. There was a /very/ fine line between a combat the PCs would win within two rounds and one they'd lose in the same amount of time, and I'm talking before 9th level. It wasn't quite rocket tag, but it was pretty damn close. That's the sort of worry I want the game system to handle for me, and it's a lot harder if the game doesn't try to do at-level balance.

EDIT: That's what I get for taking a couple of breaks from typing. [MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION] if it wasn't clear.
 
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