D&D 5E Q&A 10/17/13 - Crits, Damage on Miss, Wildshape

Linguistically?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hit
Defined as "To come into contact with forcefully; strike." (First line.)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/miss
Defined as "To fail to hit, reach, catch, meet, or otherwise make contact with." (Again first line.)

And if we were talking about English, I would agree you have a point. But we're talking about D&D.

In D&D "hit" and "miss" have entirely different connotations and definitions--a hit is something that removes your hit points. A miss is something that doesn't. We probably agree with each other up to that point.

Now they're adding a third category...a fighter that is so dangerous that the most you can do is minimize the damage, not stop it completely. Which incidentally is something completely plausible to me.

But again, we're talking about mechanical constructs...not English.

NO THEY DON'T. Hitting softly hurts less. Missing doesn't hurt at all, because you missed. Planes that fail to collide are called near misses. They do NOT collide. They have zero HITS. Thus, they do not damage one another via collision - not even softly.

Wrong. Blocks can hurt. I can parry the blow--which means you missed. But the force of the blocked blow can still be stunning, wear me out, etc...damage all the things that hit points are supposed to model other than simply bleeding open wounds.


Also, it shouldn't work at all. You forgot that condition.

Why?

Considering that hit points model, among other things, fatigue, losing hit points each round regardless of the attack roll of the person you're fighting (either they "miss" and you lose a few hit points, or they "hit" and you lose a lot) makes more sense than the traditional way.
 

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You can sigh all you want, but this answer is non-responsive. I didn't say dodging. You said there is nothing anyone can do, and I gave you a series of things various characters can do. Care to reply to what I wrote (which was not about dodging), rather than what you apparently wished I wrote (about dodging)?
No, you didn't raise dodging, I did.
There is nothing anyone can do as long as they are within 5 feet of this guy to avoid taking his STR in damage. You gave me a list of places they could be, but not things they could DO to avoid it. They could be outside his range, on the moon, behind a wall, etc. but that isn't the circumstance of "five feet away" that I originally gave. And I'll reply to what you wrote when you reply to what I wrote. If there is a specific passage you want me to respond to and re-analyze, I'll be happy to - please point it out to me. I replied to the "use magic" bit already.
Specifically, by the way, what I'm looking for is a situation (similar to dodging [ie. using ones AC]) that can be used IN MELEE with the fighter to last more than a single round - as a commoner. Because, as I also said, even minions in 4e had to be hit once. Now Salamandyr had some ideas for how to start to fix this, I'm curious what your solution is as it is currently written.

Your analogy has a lot of flaws. You proposed the analogy and I took it at face value and showed some flaws. They you got upset that I replied to the "blind" part of your post, as if I somehow was taking advantage of what you wrote? It was your example!
1. I wasn't upset.
2. You did focus on the being blind aspect quite a lot.
3. I already said (last time I replied to you) that I was stacking on disadvantages which should EACH matter. You addressed NONE of those, except to say "use magic."
4. My analogy was a composite of deficiencies which should affect the fighter in question - but failed to. It was not "flawed" or at least you have not shown it to be flawed. Your previous post basically amounted to saying "look at all these holes in this cheese" and me saying "it's swiss cheese, always looks that way" and your reply now seems to be "aha, so you are angry that I pointed out the holes." No I'm merely pointing out that you didn't explain why there are holes, nor patch them up.
5. You fixated on the blind aspect, and tried to prove that other bad things would happen because he is blind. That had nothing to do with the ability or example given, as being blind does not affect him being able to mow down a villager in melee. If you had addressed that once, instead of worrying about how he doesn't walk into walls on his way into town, then I would have probably dropped the "yeah, he's blind, and..?" comment immediately.

Here's the bottom line - a fighter can kill one or two villagers, no matter what rules you use. But, the fighter cannot kill a whole village of people, no matter which rules you use, either. Your example was a bad one. He kills a few and then gets killed himself, whether or not he does damage on a miss. Him doing damage on a miss was fairly inconsequential to the scenario. The scenario ends with a couple dead villages, and a dead fighter.
I don't have a problem with abilities that let him kill one or two villagers. I have a problem with the ability that let's him do it without an attack roll. I have a problem with him being able to slaughter 95% of all humanoids WITHOUT A ROLL, every attack all day long. This is the worst kind of "his limits are his HP" stuff that pemerton always talks about. My example was an overinflated one, having a blind fighter enter town and start a rampage, but it is still accurate with or without him being blind. He gets himself killed, eventually, has NOTHING to do with the ability in question. He gets himself killed eventually should apply to every character in the game, regardless of level or ability. It does not prove nor disprove how valid a specific ability is - which is what we are discussing - or rather what I am discussing but you are sidestepping.

I am waiting for an example of a realistic scenario where this rule actually poses a likely problem for the game. A ridiculous example that turns out the same with or without this ability doesn't help people understand why the ability is a bad one.
Example? Okay. Fighter goes into a bar. In that bar there are.. 20 villagers (level 1/0 basic level Joes just having a good time). The fighter pulls out his two handed weapon (though he could be snapping his fingers - as his strength bonus does all the work) and proceeds to slaughter everyone in the bar with zero effort. He does this without needing to roll a single attack roll. He does this by being with melee with them for a single "attack". He does this as long as he is in melee with them no matter how fast they are (DEX score, ability to dodge), how much armor they are wearing (increasing their AC), he does this without needing to make a SINGLE attack roll.

Another example: A rogue goes into a bar. In the bar is the same mix of people. He then pulls out his poisoned daggers and starts stabbing everyone. He has to roll against AC. Their saves vs. poison are taken into effect. Their DR realistically makes sense. They can still wear good armor and avoid his attacks, same goes for dodging well. Same for parrying and blocking with shields (forgot those for the fighter). He might still kill everyone but he has to at least roll a d20 once per person he kills, regardless of his dexterity. He has to at least hit the people, even if his chances of missing (and dealing zero damage) are 1 in 20.

Last example: The wizard goes into a bar. In the bar is the same mix of people. He throws a fireball. Assuming for the moment that the fireball goes through, isn't blocked or deflected before it arrives exactly where he wanted. He hits and kills probably most of the people in the bar with a giant explosion of fire damage. However, those who were able to take cover, hide behind tables, the bar, behind corners or out of the range of the attack are still saved. The wizard can also only do this once per day (per slot prepared). After which the survivors come and mop him up.

There are differences I'll grant, but the fighter has snowflake status that none of the others do. He doesn't need to roll. He doesn't need to worry what the other people can do, what they are wearing, where they are. He can effectively battle blind, or snap his fingers (as his STR is doing the work) and kill people. He can snap his fingers because his weapon is irrelevant - he kills the 3 hp people with a 0 roll on his weapon's damage dice. He breaks the game, in character and out of character, in ways that others can't. There is no defense against the fighter - enter melee and you are dead. 100 out of 100 times he kills you - first round, without a weapon, naked, blindfolded. This is the same level of evasion (in 3e) bad, except it is worse because it is offense and can be done ALL day. And against 95% of all villagers everywhere. Without defense. There isn't even the 1 in 20 that he misses.

I have a problem with that. And you can't fatigue me to death.
 

Thinking about it a little more...

Trying to hurt someone with a sword (or an axe, or a knife, etc) involves staying in contact with that person, who is probably trying to hurt you back. The likelihood of hitting someone or something that isn't defending themselves is basically 100%. You swing your sword, and if they're within reach you will hit them. And since they're trying to hit you, they'll be in reach.

So what really defines a "miss" is probably not an actual whiffed swing. Dodging really only works when you've got room to dodge, so, and if you're trying to hit your opponent, you don't have. So what's making your opponent miss is really more your armor, and your ability to deflect their blow with your weapon or shield. Which means even "misses" are making contact, just superficial ones.

Now to me, it's plausible to suppose that when fighting some weapons, like huge axes and great swords, and the big burly guys who wield them, even those superficial contacts, which would ordinarily be "misses", do some damage. Not a lot, but some. (this tracks with my experience in real bouts too).

Traditionally, the strength bonus to hit models this, and that's fine, but there's space for "damage on a miss" in that model as well.

The only thing it needs is "no killing blows", and no damage on a natural 1, to model true whiffs.
 

Thinking about it a little more...

Trying to hurt someone with a sword (or an axe, or a knife, etc) involves staying in contact with that person, who is probably trying to hurt you back. The likelihood of hitting someone or something that isn't defending themselves is basically 100%. You swing your sword, and if they're within reach you will hit them. And since they're trying to hit you, they'll be in reach.

So what really defines a "miss" is probably not an actual whiffed swing. Dodging really only works when you've got room to dodge, so, and if you're trying to hit your opponent, you don't have. So what's making your opponent miss is really more your armor, and your ability to deflect their blow with your weapon or shield. Which means even "misses" are making contact, just superficial ones.

Now to me, it's plausible to suppose that when fighting some weapons, like huge axes and great swords, and the big burly guys who wield them, even those superficial contacts, which would ordinarily be "misses", do some damage. Not a lot, but some. (this tracks with my experience in real bouts too).

Traditionally, the strength bonus to hit models this, and that's fine, but there's space for "damage on a miss" in that model as well.

The only thing it needs is "no killing blows", and no damage on a natural 1, to model true whiffs.

Sure, though there are many things of similar nature that aren't modeled, and damage on a miss isn't a good model either, because combat isn't just one person attacking while the other defends. Each round is a series of attacks. If just fighting the fighter with a greatsword is damaging, then this would be in addition to any successful attacks. Moreover, every combatant who engages should probably suffer it, unless they are nimble fighters who tend to do more dodging than blocking.

Thus, a more accurate mechanic would be that any character with a dexterity less than 15 who attacks the fighter takes the fighter's strength in damage.
 

I have a problem with the ability that let's him do it without an attack roll. I have a problem with him being able to slaughter 95% of all humanoids WITHOUT A ROLL, every attack all day long.

<snip>

Example? Okay. Fighter goes into a bar. In that bar there are.. 20 villagers (level 1/0 basic level Joes just having a good time). The fighter pulls out his two handed weapon (though he could be snapping his fingers - as his strength bonus does all the work) and proceeds to slaughter everyone in the bar with zero effort. He does this without needing to roll a single attack roll. He does this by being with melee with them for a single "attack". He does this as long as he is in melee with them no matter how fast they are (DEX score, ability to dodge), how much armor they are wearing (increasing their AC), he does this without needing to make a SINGLE attack roll.

<snip>

There are differences I'll grant, but the fighter has snowflake status that none of the others do. He doesn't need to roll. He doesn't need to worry what the other people can do, what they are wearing, where they are. He can effectively battle blind, or snap his fingers (as his STR is doing the work) and kill people. He can snap his fingers because his weapon is irrelevant - he kills the 3 hp people with a 0 roll on his weapon's damage dice. He breaks the game, in character and out of character, in ways that others can't.

(emphases added)

If I count correctly, you make variations on the same claim nine times: the fighter's player doesn't need to roll to hit (5 times), or can somehow roll a zero on damage dice (once), and, within the dramatic world, could be "snapping his fingers" (twice) "with zero effort" (once).

Each of these claims is false (mistaken, as I see it) based on what is stated in the rules of the testpack.
* In order to "miss", the fighter's player does need to make an attack roll (and so be in combat and choosing to make an attack roll as her action) -- How to play, p. 19 "Attack basics".
* damage dice are only rolled on a hit, and zero is not a result that ever arises -- How to play, p. 20 "damage rolls"
* to gain the benefit described as a first-level character (others can get it at higher levels), the character needs to be a fighter who has chosen one of five fighting styles (Classes, p. 25), and the character needs to "miss a target with a melee weapon which you are wielding with two hands". There are therefore a number of conditions that need to be met, and snapping fingers , even one handed, would mean that they are not being met.
* indeed the rules do describe circumstances which are "so easy, so free of stress or conflict...that there should be no chance of failure" (DM Guidelines, p. 1) in which rolls are not needed -- which may be taken to include your "zero effort". Since a melee attack roll is needed, this by definition isn't one of those circumstances, and the specific rule provides a unique case in which the "chance of failure" to roll a weapon's damage die, modified, etc., does damage to the target in any case.
* snapping isn't "improvising an action" either: a DM may allow you to snap fingers while wielding a two-handed weapon, etc. (How to play, p. 19), but the damage will be done by the attack.
* I get that people's understanding of what hit points represent varies, so again, let's read what's been given to us (How to play, p. 22): "Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Hit points are an abstraction..." Of the four things here, only one of them (physical durability) pertains to the circumstances you describe, as I see it, leaving the other three that could be represented by the damage that is being done to your hypothetical villagers.

Repeating the same unsubstantiated claims over and over is not persuasive. You are correct that the situation you describe is ridiculous. Fortunately, that situation is not related to the rule being discussed. If you read the rules differently, then please spell it out.
 
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Am I opposed to getting a bonus on the next hit because you missed this time? Yes.

I would similarly be pissed if you insta-killed (or added more damage) to a gun shot because you missed the previous time. You miss = fail to hit = do no damage.

Ok, with your gun analogy, are you then saying you can't learn anything from your miss? Adjust your next shot based on factors that made you miss the first time? Are you saying that a "miss" in D&D must be "utter and total failure that cannot be learned from" for you to be happy with it?

Edit: Changed to ask about your thoughts instead of assigning.
 

So what really defines a "miss" is probably not an actual whiffed swing. Dodging really only works when you've got room to dodge, so, and if you're trying to hit your opponent, you don't have. So what's making your opponent miss is really more your armor, and your ability to deflect their blow with your weapon or shield. Which means even "misses" are making contact, just superficial ones.

This is great rationalization, and for particular assumptions about what is fighting it's perfectly reasonable. But not all fights in D&D involve combats between two skilled, heavily armored, combatants in close melee.

Basically, in D&D up to say 3.X a modified roll of less than 5 represents a complete whiff and a complete failure to solidly hit anything. This can be seen because a Dex 1 creature with no armor would still be missed under these conditions under every version of the game.

Likewise, the target of blows in D&D isn't always a heavily armored humanoid. You might be trying to land a blow with a poisoned dagger on a nimble fairy creature that is darting around like a hummingbird and blowing raspberries at you. Nothing prevents such a creature from having a 25 AC (-5 AC in 1e) based solely on its small size and quickness, and nothing to do with armor. In this case, there are no superficial hits and its perfectly reasonable that most attacks result in whiffed swings.

So no it is not at all reasonable to suggest that even misses are making superficial contact.

Now to me, it's plausible to suppose that when fighting some weapons, like huge axes and great swords, and the big burly guys who wield them, even those superficial contacts, which would ordinarily be "misses", do some damage. Not a lot, but some.

Sure. That's perfectly plausible. What isn't plausible under the rules is that all misses are actually superficial hits. It is perfectly plausible that misses which are in fact glancing blows with heavy weapons do some damage, but not all misses are glancing blows. Some misses are according to the rules and the color of the game whiffs.
 

I'm not certain what you mean by "process-sim" but you've just answered any possible argument in favor of this cockamamey idea.

There's "a success [result]." We call this a "hit."

There's "a failure result." We call this a...say it with me...a "miss"! :)

Adjudicate narration to match the result.

It's hit (success/does damage, however you want to narrate or justify HP) or miss (failure/no damage, however you want to narrate or justify HP).

Add "some benefit" to the miss...and it's not a MISS anymore. That is, it's not a failure result.

What did you do when something said, "If you miss the skill check by 5 or more, [something bad happens to you, like falling], otherwise you stay where you are on failure, or move half speed on success"?
 


No, you didn't raise dodging, I did.
There is nothing anyone can do as long as they are within 5 feet of this guy to avoid taking his STR in damage.

Roughly half the things I listed can be done to avoid taking his strength damage. Things like mirror image, for example, or the pit he's standing on triggering if he steps on it to get next to me. Here's another one: I ready an action to move my speed if the fighter stands next to me and tries to hit me. Here's another one: I ready an action to cast a wall between us (illusionary one or a real one) if he steps next to me. See, it's really not that hard to do something to avoid taking the damage.

You gave me a list of places they could be, but not things they could DO to avoid it.

I gave you both.

They could be outside his range, on the moon, behind a wall, etc. but that isn't the circumstance of "five feet away" that I originally gave.

So you're insisting on talking about this scenario in a vacuum, we cannot talk about what happened just before the fighter arrived right next to someone? Doesn't sound like a very realistic scenario you're working with. Apparently, only the fighter gets a turn, and he always wins initiative?

And I'll reply to what you wrote when you reply to what I wrote. If there is a specific passage you want me to respond to and re-analyze, I'll be happy to - please point it out to me. I replied to the "use magic" bit already. Specifically, by the way, what I'm looking for is a situation (similar to dodging [ie. using ones AC]) that can be used IN MELEE with the fighter to last more than a single round - as a commoner.


You're aware what "cunning action" does, right? It's for this specific sort of situation. And all rogues have it. They move in, hit the fighter with a melee action, and move back out again, generally further than the fighter can reach with their own move action. Hitting you with a melee weapon counts as engaging in melee, right? Making it so that the fighter can never hit you back in melee is avoiding the melee damage, right? Now imagine if the rogue can fly...ouch!

I already said (last time I replied to you) that I was stacking on disadvantages which should EACH matter. You addressed NONE of those, except to say "use magic."

Much of what I said was not magic. You just chose to ignore the list and then pretend it was all some sort of magical hand-waive. Again, poor form.

5. You fixated on the blind aspect, and tried to prove that other bad things would happen because he is blind. That had nothing to do with the ability or example given, as being blind does not affect him being able to mow down a villager in melee. If you had addressed that once, instead of worrying about how he doesn't walk into walls on his way into town, then I would have probably dropped the "yeah, he's blind, and..?" comment immediately.

It's your fault I picked on the blind aspect, BECAUSE YOU CHOSE TO INCLUDE IT. If it didn't matter for your example, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN IT FOR YOUR EXAMPLE. What's so hard about that? You want to punt out of your example, fine, go ahead. But stop complaining I took what you said at face value and responded to the most obvious flaw more than you would have preferred. I can only work with what you give me - I cannot read your mind and see that you didn't really mean the full example you gave but only part of it.

I don't have a problem with abilities that let him kill one or two villagers. I have a problem with the ability that let's him do it without an attack roll.

Cool. Problem solved - he needs to make an attack roll to use the ability. And to make the attack roll, he must be able to target. And that targeting is nixed by a large variety of things.

I have a problem with him being able to slaughter 95% of all humanoids WITHOUT A ROLL, every attack all day long.

Cool. Then you have no problem because he has to roll.

You might consider the fact that words have meaning, and people are going to respond to what you say, not what you're thinking ;p

This is the worst kind of "his limits are his HP" stuff that pemerton always talks about. My example was an overinflated one, having a blind fighter enter town and start a rampage, but it is still accurate with or without him being blind. He gets himself killed, eventually, has NOTHING to do with the ability in question.

The result is identical with or without the ability to do damage on a miss, however. Which is one reason your example is flawed. If the ability has no impact on the results, why does it bother you, and why is it an "accurate" example?

He gets himself killed eventually should apply to every character in the game, regardless of level or ability. It does not prove nor disprove how valid a specific ability is - which is what we are discussing - or rather what I am discussing but you are sidestepping.

He gets killed IN YOUR EXAMPLE, not "eventually, some day, in the life of an adventurer". He gets killed at roughly the same point in the example as he would without the ability, and he kills as many villagers in the example as he roughly would without the ability. The ability had essentially no impact. Fighters will kill a couple villagers and then get killed by the villagers when they engage in a rampage on a village - with or without the ability. Which makes the ability not very meaningful in your example. It's not a good way to prove the ability is bad, if the results are the same.

Example? Okay. Fighter goes into a bar. In that bar there are.. 20 villagers (level 1/0 basic level Joes just having a good time). The fighter pulls out his two handed weapon (though he could be snapping his fingers - as his strength bonus does all the work) and proceeds to slaughter everyone in the bar with zero effort.

He kills ONE. Which he would have done with or without the ability, as he's a trained fighter attacking unarmored drunken bar folks. And they all then tackle him and beat him to a pulp, because with bounded accuracy they can all hit him without a whole lot of luck needed, and those many who do hit him all do damage to him without a whole lot of luck needed.

The same exact result happens with, or without, the ability. Your example doesn't get to break all the rules of the game. The fighter gets one attack on his turn, and then 19 other people get one attack on their turn.

He does this without needing to roll a single attack roll. He does this by being with melee with them for a single "attack". He does this as long as he is in melee with them no matter how fast they are (DEX score, ability to dodge), how much armor they are wearing (increasing their AC), he does this without needing to make a SINGLE attack roll.

And he gets an infinite number of turns and the villagers get zero turns? Your example only works if you get to pretend there are no other rules to the game.

Another example: A rogue goes into a bar. In the bar is the same mix of people. He then pulls out his poisoned daggers and starts stabbing everyone. He has to roll against AC. Their saves vs. poison are taken into effect. Their DR realistically makes sense. They can still wear good armor and avoid his attacks, same goes for dodging well. Same for parrying and blocking with shields (forgot those for the fighter).

He's attacking a bunch of drunk villagers in a bar. He kills one, and then they all kill him. Same result as before.

He might still kill everyone but he has to at least roll a d20 once per person he kills, regardless of his dexterity. He has to at least hit the people, even if his chances of missing (and dealing zero damage) are 1 in 20.

You really DO think nobody else gets a turn and the rogue gets to attack an infinite number of times?

Last example: The wizard goes into a bar. In the bar is the same mix of people. He throws a fireball. Assuming for the moment that the fireball goes through, isn't blocked or deflected before it arrives exactly where he wanted. He hits and kills probably most of the people in the bar with a giant explosion of fire damage. However, those who were able to take cover, hide behind tables, the bar, behind corners or out of the range of the attack are still saved.

To hide, you need a turn to react to what's going on. So are you giving the villagers a turn here, in which case they all tackle the wizard and kill him? Or do they not get a turn first, in which case THEY ALL DIE. In fact, this is the only scenario where everyone really does all die - the other examples only one guy dies and then the fighter or rogue die.

The wizard can also only do this once per day (per slot prepared). After which the survivors come and mop him up.

Well I am so glad you gave the villagers a turn finally, even if they only get a turn in your world if the character is a wizard.

There are differences I'll grant, but the fighter has snowflake status that none of the others do. He doesn't need to roll.

He does need to roll. He needs to roll, and miss, to trigger the ability. It takes his turn. That's it. The wizard needs to roll for some spells as well, but still does damage whether or not he hits or misses, also.

He doesn't need to worry what the other people can do, what they are wearing, where they are. He can effectively battle blind, or snap his fingers (as his STR is doing the work) and kill people. He can snap his fingers because his weapon is irrelevant - he kills the 3 hp people with a 0 roll on his weapon's damage dice. He breaks the game, in character and out of character, in ways that others can't.

OK, so this is where I hold you accountable.

When you say something breaks the game, you don't get to do that unless it actually breaks games.

Have you played with this ability and found it to break your game? If not, don't say it breaks games. That level of accusation is reserved for things that actually result in people's games breaking, not theory.

There is no defense against the fighter - enter melee and you are dead.

Except for tons of defenses I gave you, most of which you ignored.

100 out of 100 times he kills you - first round, without a weapon, naked, blindfolded.

Except if one of the many defenses I mentioned is used, in which case most of the time the fighter fails to kill. Is it really that hard to imagine "Gack, rampaging fighter! I ready an action to flee max speed if he steps next to me looking to hit me!"?
 
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