D&D 5E 7 Legitimate Beefs with Hoard of the Dragon Queen

I was going to post the entirety of the text from the blog post I wrote here on a forum thread, but does the EnWorld forum work well with Markdown? I can't find an option for it. And I don't have the time to reformat it, so here:

http://evanmiller.me/7-legitimate-beefs-with-hoard-of-the-dragon-queen/

Some good beefs.

I've been dismissive of a lot of reviews for really focusing in on what you describe as "illegitimate" beefs. Too many people are getting hung up on stylistic problems and not quite getting to actual problems with the adventure. You raise some good points.

This is excellent, both well written and interesting. Thanks!

nice to know what i'm in for running it for my players.


good post.

Great points. It jibes with my "gut" feel for HotDQ. It seems like a really, really great concept that should be super fun. When I sit down to read/plan, I always feel like things aren't quite right.

While my attempt at converting it to Eberron is certainly a contributing factor, I don't think it accounts for everything.

Here you go!

I've seen several posts on the range of forums I visit that heap heavy criticism on Hoard of the Dragon Queen. This post is an attempt to objectively (har har) diagnose some of its flaws in a way that is constructive, rather than destructive.

Steve Winter (username: Huscarl on the Wizards community forums) actually provided a list of clarifications for Hoard, and there's a small part of me that dies inside when I see people whining about the adventure he's designed (along with Wolfgang Bauer), considering that he seems to frequent/browse the forums where some of those comments are posted. That being said, I've seen a lot of nice things posted too, but hate tends to burn far brighter than praise.

Differentiating Between Legitimate & Illegitimate Beef(s)
I will be referring to problems or flaws found in Hoard as "beefs" for a number of reasons that, frankly, were quite boring to read, and have been cut from the final edit. I define a Legitimate Beef as a problem, flaw, omission, or mistake found in Hoard that has the potential to confuse or frustrate the DM and/or players. An Illegitimate Beef is a perceived problem, flaw, omission, etc found in Hoard that is answered or rebuffed by the text of the adventure, or is stylistic in nature. "I don't like this part because: reasons" is not a Legitimate Beef.

This post does not cover any references to the evolving ruleset of 5e found in Hoard i.e. readiness or typos. I'm not here to nitpick (much).

Three examples of Illegitimate Beef are proffered below:

"The map of Greenest (pg. 10) doesn't have a key."

Steve Winter addressed this one himself in the previously linked forum post:

Once upon a time, certain mission headings included numbers to indicate which map keys they were associated with. Somewhere along the way, those numbers disappeared.

Whether or not losing the map key was a deliberate choice or an error, I do not count it as a Legitimate Beef. The map of Greenest is damn simple. There are four numbered locations. If you open up the book and read the mission headings after looking at the map (Seek the Keep, The Old Tunnel, Save the Mill, Sanctuary) it's easy to infer what each number represents.

And if the DM actually takes the time to read the book instead of skimming it, the locations become obvious.

"Episode 1 (Greenest In Flames) is too hard for Level 1 characters."

On the face of it, I agree with this statement, it is way too hard for Level 1 characters if the DM runs it as written and has them do every mission. There are no opportunities for a long rest, period. Governor Nighthill will offer The Party two healing potions, but that's only after one of them fights (and loses to) Langdedrosa Cyanwrath.

What makes this an Illegitimate Beef is the text on pg. 6-7 (emphasis added):

"Characters can engage in several encounters while cultists and kobolds rampage through Greenest. The sequence of events that follow is up to you and the characters. You can present them with as many of the encounters as you want, in any order."

If you have particularly resilient (lucky) group, you can run the whole Episode, but you don't have to. And if you're playing the Encounters version of the adventure, there is an Experience Cap of 300 XP for Episode 1. Including Seek the Keep, there are eight missions in Episode 1. My players were Level 2 by the end of the third session I ran of Hoard, and I ended up skipping the fights in The Old Tunnel, as well as omitting The Sally Port mission entirely.

"Governor Nighthill and Escobert the Red are boring NPCs."

This is a Stylistic Beef. For the purposes of this post: Stylistic Beef = Illegitimate Beef.

Caveats
I fully expect disagreement on how I decide to define Beefs. I also expect some of the Beefs I've identified as Legitimate to be, in fact, Illegitimate Beefs. So it goes.

Beef #1: Burying the lede
The first time Rezmir's name appears in the print version of Hoard is on pages 9-10:

Captured Kobolds are terrfified; they say whatever they think the questioner wants to hear. They know that they're working for the Cult of the Dragon and for the "dragon lady" (Rezmir), and that they're after loot.

There is no mention of her in the Introduction on page 5, nor is there any other mention of her in Episode 1. In the Encounters version of Hoard, however, there is an info-box on page 13 (which corresponds to page 10 in the print version) that is absent from the print version. It tells us that Rezmir is a Wyrmspeaker in Severin's inner circle and in command of the forces attacking Greenest.

Crux of the Beef: Vital information on Rezmir's role in the adventure should have been included sooner. Preferably in the overview. The info-box on page 13 of the Encounters version should have been included in the print version.

Beef #2: Map Key, Where Art Thou?
Unlike the map of Greenest, inferences concerning the map of the Raiders Camp on page 16 are not so easy. To heap irritation on top of confusion, the "1" on the map is damn near invisible.

Crux of the Beef: There should have been a key. One of the numbers on the map isn't readable.

Beef #3: Dragon Eggs & Unclear Goals
At the beginning of Episode 3, Leosin tasks the characters to return to the hatchery (page 20):

"If the cultists are preparing to conduct another raid, or a large body of them marches away, or if anything substantial is carried into or out of that cave, I need to know."

It's quite easy for the party to see that the bulk of the Cultists have marched away. Once they're in the hatchery and find Area 13, they can see they've taken the treasure, too. Going to Mondath's rooms and finding the notes on her table about freighting the treasure North to Naerytar would clue them in to the Cult's plans. Once those three things have been observed, Mission = Done. The Party has accomplished everything Leosin asked them to do except...

The rewards listed on page 27 award characters 250 XP per dragon egg taken or destroyed. And then there's this (emphasis added):

"With the dragon hatchery destroyed and the cultists all gone, characters should head for Elturel and their rendezvouz with Leosin Erlanthar and Ontharr Frume."

Destroyed? But I thought this was a recon mission. Huh. From the overview (page 9):

"...While rescuing that captive from the raiders' camp, characters learn they are up against the Cult of the Dragon, and they have the chance to destroy a subterranean Dragon Hatchery that the Cult guards.

Crux of the Beef: Leosin tasks the Party with a reconaissance mission, but if the players don't go full scorched-earth with the Dragon Hatchery, they lose out on a good amount of XP. Smart Dungeon Masters can award this experience anyway if the Party earns it through other means, but as written, it presents difficulties.

Beef #4: Caravan Math
In Faerun, there are 365 days in a year, 12 months in a year, and 30 days in a month (I think). I only learned that through googling. On page 31, a table is given for "Hiring Out", and covers how much pay a character might get as a guard, which varies from 5-10 gold pieces.. The caravan is expected to take two months (page 33), but the length of a month isn't mentioned.

For DMs new to the Forgotten Realms setting, the length of a month would be a useful thing to have. A "tenday" is self-explanatory, but is a tenday a week? Or are weeks only seven days long and a tenday is a separate unit of measuring days because: reasons? Are there only three "weeks" in a month, but they're called tendays instead?

Crux of the Beef: A small info-box on how days, months, years work in the Forgotten Realms would have been damn useful for the DM who would like to pay their characters correctly.

Beef #5: Faerunian Psycho
Jamna is tasked with figuring out what the Cult of the Dragon is planning (page 31). But if she fails to discover it...

"Those above her seriously considered wiping out the caravan with mercenaries disguised as bandits, ransacking the wagons, and torturing cult members for the desired information...If she hasn't come up with something useful by the time the caravan reaches Waterdeep, she will put plan B - the one involving mass murder - into action."

There are two problems with this:

The size of the caravan is never specified, but it's implied that it's fairly big. So it would be a Big Deal to wipe it out.
No guidelines are given if Jamna has to deploy Plan B.
Crux of the Beef: If an NPC fails to accomplish a mission the DM has to whip up a fairly large combat encounter or hand-wave away the NPC's failure.

Beef #6: The Rapid Disappearance of Jamna Gleamsilver
Jamna appears in Episode 4. In Episode 5, she wants to stick with the Cultists until she discovers the treasure's true destination. From Waterdeep, another caravan is formed. Jamna tags along. On page 42, it's mentioned that if the characters aren't "up to it", Jamna can assist them in tracking the crates being unloaded from the Cultist's wagons.

After page 42, Jamna isn't mentioned anywhere in the adventure. She just disappears. There are no guidelines for her behavior after the characters discover the hidden tunnel from Karnath Roadhouse to the Swamp. Or after they discover the treasure is headed to Castle Naerytar.

Crux of the Beef: A semi-important NPC disappears from the story entirely at the beginning of Episode 6.

Beef #7: The Longest Journey
The length to which the Cult of the Dragon goes to transport its stolen loot to the Well of Dragons is pretty...weird. They start out just south of Greenest, after raiding it. Then they go North to Baldurs Gate, where their cargo is, presumably, taxed. Then a two month roadtrip to Waterdeep, then another few weeks to Carnath Roadhouse, and then Lizardfolk transport the treasure to Castle Naerytar via a swamp.

From Naerytar, a teleportation circle whisks away the loot to the Greypeak Mountains. From there it goes to Parnast where it's loaded onto a Flying Castle. This castle has more treasure that the cult has looted from the surrounding region.

The castle's final destination is the Well of Dragons. If you take a look at the map on page 4, the treasure looted from Greenest goes in a big circle. One wonders why Rezmir just didn't take the hoard she'd acquired through the Marsh of Tun, or East on the Chionthar River for a ways.

Crux of the Beef: The adventure takes the characters in a big circle. And there's no reason presented in the module (that I've found) for the cult's circuitous treasure-smuggling route.

Closing Thoughts
Overall, I like Hoard of the Dragon Queen. I think it's a fun little adventure. I'm running it as a weekly game and I plan on running Rise of Tiamat. That being said, I hope the text of future 5th edition adventures are more closely reviewed prior to publication. There were quite a few annoying typos that confused me at times, and those were in addition to the "Beefs" I listed above.

Once I'm finished DMing the adventure, I might post a review of the Hoard along with highlights from my campaign.

Hoard of the Dragon Queen
The Rise of Tiamat

Those are the biggest issues I recall from my own list, too. Though I would add that the time spent in the caravan should add more familiarity with the NPCs, and there's no motivation for the giant to let them use his castle.

I can only speak as a player, but it's definitely an odd adventure. Conceptually, I like it. The story kernel is interesting. I had fun with the first part. Our fighter was insanely lucky in dealing with the dragon making that part easier than I expected. The encounters are a little fast and furious. We felt pressed at times, though we handled it with relative ease using good tactics involving the minor image cantrip.

I despised the caravan sequence. As a player it seemed like you had no real impact on the events in the caravan. They all seemed scripted to provide you the information you needed whether you successfully reconnoitered or not. I spent a great deal of time attempting to scout the caravan for useful information. What did I receive for my efforts? A few scripted events with an NPC that pretty much gave us the information we needed. I felt disempowered in the module as a player with too much direction from NPCs. I don't find heavy handed scripting enjoyable. I hope I don't have to deal with more NPCs providing information that directs me where to go and what to do. I like to figure these things out on my own and feel as though my actions are driving the story rather than being a pawn of other masters.

The one thing I'm highly skeptical of is WotC's ability to produce adventures that in anyway equal what I have become accustomed to from Paizo. Paizo's Adventure Paths were far superior to anything I have seen from WotC since the good old days of D&D. Much more open to DM and player caveat with more interesting stories that you can do with or without the recommended NPCs. I hope future modules are far more interesting than Hoard appears to be. Heck, I'd be happy if WotC updated a bunch of 1st edition modules rather than producing new modules. Those 1E modules are still great. Love to see 5E Against the Giants or Assault on the Slavelords.

I have it, i read it over, something was NOT clicking with me as far as that adventure, I'm not even sure what. I ended up running Lost Mine of Phandelver instead and greatly enjoy it.

We've completed only the first 4 episodes so far, and I really only have one beef from a design standpoint, and this one is from a balance one.

The chamber with Cyan and the beserkers. It says to add one beserker for every party member above four. Each beserker has 67 hit points--almost triple that of most 3rd level PCs at this point. So to add one berserker for each additional PC seems a bit much IMO.

Of course, when we encountered them, we didn't do ourselves any favors. The cleric lady escaped down the ladder, which of course we followed. So not only did we have to face Cyanwrath and a bunch of beserkers, we had her too, and we were not nearly at full strength since we had just killed all her guards above and used resources for that.