I don't think I agree with this. There is nothing in Blindsight that negates stealth entirely. Blindsight not only gives a description of what it does (perceive surroundings without relying on vision) but it also gives examples. Grimlocks have blindsight because of their heightened hearing and smell. Gray oozes have some sort of magical sense. Bats have echolocation. Dragons have heightened senses. While using stealth would be tricky, it should not really be more difficult than if the creature could see you visiually. Releasing sources of strong smell and loud noises would allow stealth out in the open past grimlocks, and being behind cover should allow stealth past bats, dragons and oozes. So there should be means of still using stealth even if it is more tricky.
D&D 5E Observations and opinions after 8 levels and a dragon fight
- Thread starter Celtavian
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I don't think I agree with this. There is nothing in Blindsight that negates stealth entirely. Blindsight not only gives a description of what it does (perceive surroundings without relying on vision) but it also gives examples. Grimlocks have blindsight because of their heightened hearing and smell. Gray oozes have some sort of magical sense. Bats have echolocation. Dragons have heightened senses. While using stealth would be tricky, it should not really be more difficult than if the creature could see you visiually. Releasing sources of strong smell and loud noises would allow stealth out in the open past grimlocks, and being behind cover should allow stealth past bats, dragons and oozes. So there should be means of still using stealth even if it is more tricky.
Blindsight doesn't mean this aerial layout of the area suddenly pops into your head and everything is visible to.
Tremor sense would be something you couldn't hide from unless you weren't touching the ground.
Tremor sense would be something you couldn't hide from unless you weren't touching the ground.
Because perceiving with blindsight is not the same as seeing. In fact, it says in the description that it is perception without seeing.
You are basing your entire argument on "you can't hide from someone who can see you," and then claiming that a special sense -- one that explicitly does not involve vision -- somehow qualifies as seeing.
Also, doesn't blindsight generally involve a range? A rogue could easily hide outside that range, no matter what your opinion on the rest of this.
Beware being over-reliant on particular word use. This isn't an edition for that. Think spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. You should worry more about whether the interpretation *makes sense* than obeys the letter of the wording, IMHO.
If those interpreting Blindsight to mean some other than it says want to run it as possible to Stealth against a creature with Blindsight, have at it. I know what the word perceive means. Absent additional explanation such as saying "if you move quietly" or "if you mask your smell" you can stealth, then Stealth is ineffective within range of Blindsight. Perceive without seeing has a clear meaning indicating that their senses are good as sight within their range. Stealth doesn't work if you are seen. Invisibility only works against sight. Thus stealth doesn't work, same as if you were in sight of the creature with Blindsight. Unless The Sage indicates otherwise, I'll go with how the ability reads.
The rogue ability Blindsense is different. All it pinpoints is location. That indicates that stealth and invisibility are still effective.
The one thing about this edition is plain language is how an ability usually works. That's what I've learned from The Sage. Adding your own ideas is encouraged, but there is an official ruling for how things work and an always present "Ultimately the DM decides." Blindsight kills stealth, invisibility, and other such things within range.
The rogue ability Blindsense is different. All it pinpoints is location. That indicates that stealth and invisibility are still effective.
The one thing about this edition is plain language is how an ability usually works. That's what I've learned from The Sage. Adding your own ideas is encouraged, but there is an official ruling for how things work and an always present "Ultimately the DM decides." Blindsight kills stealth, invisibility, and other such things within range.
The point people are trying to make is that you are not treating it as "good as sight." You are making it better than sight if you say it functions through solid objects. There's nothing in the description that hints that it can do that.
So, kills invisibility and stealth? Absolutely, assuming there's no physical object blocking line of "sight."
It's odd that someone would claim a "natural language" or RAI interpretation, but then completely ignore the natural language of the definition that mentions echolocation -- an example that gives a very clear indication of the intention.
Sacrosanct
Legend
I think you're wrong on all accounts, but I'll admit the first part is on interpretation (even if I think my interpretation is the common one, judging by language and the opinions of others). But you are in fact objectively wrong with the rogue ability. First you said it doesn't exist (when it clearly does), and now above. It explicitly states that hidden and invisible creatures are detected. That right there tells you that you are mistaken, and stealth and invisibility are not still effective.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Monks are actually surprisingly good with ranged weapons. High dexterity, high mobility, doesn't rely on shields for AC, can bonus dodge if necessary, wins archery duels by catching enemy arrows that hit. And a very common Monk race (Wild Elf) even has a bonus proficiency in longbows, so you get higher damage and longer range than shortbows. (This is about the only time when elven weapon proficiency seems to be any good at all.)
Monks are still inferior to a genuine Sharpshooter fighter with Archery style, but they are good enough at the ranged game that every monk should absolutely pack a bow. (Even the monks without proficiency in bows.)
So, for your specific party, I would say that the Monk, the Paladin, and the Barbarian should pack bows, and the cleric should cast Bless. (Cleric and wizard should pack crossbows.) That way you can engage from beyond his breath weapon range, which forces him to either escalate to closer-ranged attacks (breath weapon range or melee range) or to abandon the combat. In breath weapon range, your STR-based guys can switch to javelins and your wizard can throw spells like Web/Everard's Black Tentacles which target Dex. Alternately, your wizard can cast a Phantasmal Force illusion of, say, sticky webbing that brings the dragon crashing to the ground until he takes an action to disbelieve. I'm not sure what your cleric should be doing but then I don't really grok clerics beyond using them for Bless and Death Ward (which are actually better on a Bard).
Shadowdweller00
Hero
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