D&D 5E Player's Handbook Official Errata

pukunui said:

Also from Jeremy: "The intent is resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning damage, regardless of source (MM errata preview)."

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This is worth of clarification.

There is usually quite a clear connection with the narrative when a monster has some resistance - assuming the monster is of good design of course. In some past editions for example, skeletons were resistant to piercing damage but not bludgeoning. It is ok for me whether 5e wants to make a distinction or simplify instead.

Then we should accept that it's never 100% safe-proof, there are always corner cases where a weapon which is given a primary form of damage (e.g. axe = slashing) could be reasonably also used in another way (bludgeoning).

Delandel said:

Also, what am I supposed to do exactly? Poop on my friend's character by whining to the DM? Not happening.

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This is the real problem. It is the duty of ALL people at the table, not just the DM to be stewards of game balance. All people at the table are in this together, but far too often players get some notion that only the DM should object to overpowered options and it is wrong for a player to voice balance concerns.

gyor said:

Anyone notice how much more powerful Magic Iniate got as a feat. I heard a rules interruptation rescently that if the 1st level spell chosen belonged to a class you have the spell was basically an extra spell known, but the errata does not have that restriction. If your playing a single class wizard for example and you take Magic Iniatate cleric and choose healing word, you can now cast it using any of your wizard slots.
.

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That's not how it works.

If you take Magic Initiate and Sorc and grab Magic Missile, as a Wizard you still have no permission to use your spell slots to cast the Sorc magic missile. Thus you can cast it once via the MI feat and thats it.
If you take Magic Initiate and Sorc and grab Magic MIssile, as a Sorcerer you do have permission to use your spell slots to cast the Sorc magic missile. Thus you can cast it once via the MI feat, and also use your spell slots for it.

So it works exactly the same as the Sage Advice said.

Folks, there are no rule changes here.... just clarifications and corrections. It is going to work just like the Sage Advice says it does.

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scottcoz said:

A nerf is when the designers change their mind on something, and reduce it's power level. That's not the case here. As has been shown by the link to Jeremy Crawford's tweet - https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/521538368698462208 - he clarified 8 months ago, last October, "The Twinned Spell feature is intended to work on spells that can normally target only one creature." So, this errata was a clarification, because people like you were misinterpreting the rule, and thus making Sorcerer's overpowered.

Don't think that made Sorcerer's overpowered? Really? So, a 2nd level spell (Scorching Ray), that can be cast by a 3rd level character, that does up to TWELVE d6 of damage (averaging 42 damage on 6 hits).... is UNDER powered? Ok, granted, some of those shots could miss. How about a 2nd level Magic Missile? Doesn't miss, so 8 missiles do average damage of 28.

Your logic seems seriously flawed to me. Please explain how any other class can come even close to that kind of alpha strike?

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Sigh.

I'm not even going to bother. There's already an excellent post in here by a Sorcerer player who covers why this IS a Nerf and terrible errata.

I'll refer you to that post.

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scottcoz said:

I read it, and replied to Delandel, too. I'll refer you to that reply, and all the other replies to him, and to you, too.

Of course, if you insist on your own definitions of words, instead of their actual defined uses, it is no surprise you find yourself "sighing," when surrounded by people who disagree with you.

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I'm quite happy to call it what it is then - bad game design decision.

I'm playing with a Sorcerer in the group through HoTDQ and without twinned he is woefully under powered. I've also played a level 11-17 Sorcerer and it was also woefully underpowered.

This makes what is a bad class design to begin with even worse. The Sorcerer is far too limited to do anything now except be a buff bot. They're now officially the AD&D Cleric in disguise.

Celtavian said:

Don't you also have a fire bolt that does up to 4d10. So you'll eventually do 23, twin it for 1 point, 46? While the barbarian is still doing 27 or 40.5 (with crit?). And you get to toss out a bunch of other spells on top of it, while he continues to swing his weapon.

That's why that is balanced.

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Are you serious? You're saying it's balanced because at level 17 my cantrip is doing 4d10? Really?

Alright, you want to compare endgame, aka the levels that less than 1% of the playerbase will ever experience? Let's do math funtime!

Sorcerer Fire Bolt at 20: 4d10+5 = 27! And you can twin it up to 20 times I guess, so 8d10+10 = 54

Barbarian Raging Reckless Swing at 20: 2d12 + 14 (STR) + 8 (Rage) = 35 minimum with a higher chance to hit. If he drops a creature thanks to GWM, he can take a bonus action swing, so 3d12 + 21 + 12 = 52.5 . Ah, but if he crits, thanks to Brutal Critical and double crit chance due to that on-demand advantage, it's 6d12 + 21 + 12 = 72.

This is ignoring that -5/+10 still, of course. Otherwise bump the minimum damage to 55, then bonus swing to 82.5, and the one crit bonus swing to 102.

Ah yesssss, my cantrips at theoretical endgame is soooo good. Balance!

Barb takes hits and swing his weapon. You get to do other nifty stuff. Don't you eventually get wings? You get to fly around, blast at range, while the barbarian continues to run around and swing his weapon.

C'mon now. Why you trying to take everything away form the barbarian?

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Yes, of course, I do get other nifty things. I readily admit that. Not many though! It's that gosh darn "I-only-have-15-spells-total-ever" problem. Contrary to popular belief, the sorcerer is NOT a wizard!

Want to see my spells at level 7? These are my current spells. I got my blasting spells, I got Shield because I don't have D12 HP, then for my "nifty stuff" it's Disguise Self, Fly, Greater Invis. Polymorph is my overpowered spell! Note how many times I can cast these spells, up there in the top right.

Take away from the barbarian? Have you seen them in action? I have. In every playgroup, even. They are the action. They are in the frontlines, shrugging off hits that would KO me, and dealing consistent huge damage. All I ever wanted was to be the glass cannon, the Black Mage, that can outpewpew when needed. And now it's stuck on Fireball or bust.

miniaturehoarder said:

It put the water whip on the same level as the Fist of Unbroken Air as it should be. Bonus casting of anything represents an enormous increase of power.

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He's saying it's misguided because Elemental Monk is widely acknowledged as a terribly underpowered subclass, down there scraping the barrel with Beastmaster, and water whip was the only good thing it had going. Now it's nerfed instead of actually bringing the class up to par. Hence misguided.

scottcoz said:

You're forgetting the probability of the attack roll, I think - the Barb using GWM has -30% chance to hit (he also gave up +2 Str to get that Feat), so, even with advantage, he's going to hit a lot less often than the Sorcerer.

Also - the advantages of range are many and varied. If you find you're being outclassed by melee types... all I can say is, play more to those advantages. I DM for many groups (running both Encounters and Expeditions), and the clever players almost always seem to prefer ranged types, and are often able to end the combat before the melee types even get in position to do anything. And then there's the versatility of a magic class, as opposed to the one-trick ponies that are most melee types (ie. said Barbarian). If those things don't appeal to you, and all you want is ranged DPS, and by your estimations, Sorcerers don't provide enough of it, maybe try a ranged Rogue?

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I'm too tired right now to figure out if you -30% even with advantage statement is true, regardless, this is a SINGLE feat, he will get that max STR in a jiffy. Or he just starts with it as a Human with no less STR bonus than anyone else (16 vs 17 are both +3).

The dragon sorcerer has been advertised by Wizards as the blaster. Many times. That's what I wanted to play. I wanted to play the Black Mage, the magical glass cannon. And it WAS as advertised, at least from level 6 on, and I enjoyed it. I've also shown the math on why this change is bunk. Telling me go play a Rogue when I'm already in a campaign that's spanned half a year is, well, yeah. Obviously I wouldn't pick Sorcerer again under these conditions. But the rug was pulled from under me.

Delandel said:

Are you serious? You're saying it's balanced because at level 17 my cantrip is doing 4d10? Really?

Alright, you want to compare endgame, aka the levels that less than 1% of the playerbase will ever experience? Let's do math funtime!

Sorcerer Fire Bolt at 20: 4d10+5 = 27! And you can twin it up to 20 times I guess, so 8d10+10 = 54

Barbarian Raging Reckless Swing at 20: 2d12 + 14 (STR) + 8 (Rage) = 35 minimum with a higher chance to hit. If he drops a creature thanks to GWM, he can take a bonus action swing, so 3d12 + 21 + 12 = 52.5 . Ah, but if he crits, thanks to Brutal Critical and double crit chance due to that on-demand advantage, it's 6d12 + 21 + 12 = 72.

This is ignoring that -5/+10 still, of course. Otherwise bump the minimum damage to 55, then bonus swing to 82.5, and the one crit bonus swing to 102.

Ah yesssss, my cantrips at theoretical endgame is soooo good. Balance!




Yes, of course, I do get other nifty things. I readily admit that. Not many though! It's that gosh darn "I-only-have-15-spells-total-ever" problem. Contrary to popular belief, the sorcerer is NOT a wizard!

Want to see my spells at level 7? These are my current spells. I got my blasting spells, I got Shield because I don't have D12 HP, then for my "nifty stuff" it's Disguise Self, Fly, Greater Invis. Polymorph is my overpowered spell! Note how many times I can cast these spells, up there in the top right.

Take away from the barbarian? Have you seen them in action? I have. In every playgroup, even. They are the action. They are in the frontlines, shrugging off hits that would KO me, and dealing consistent huge damage. All I ever wanted was to be the glass cannon, the Black Mage, that can outpewpew when needed. And now it's stuck on Fireball or bust.

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If you were talking about a Sharpshooter, I would be more sympathetic. Barbarians start to slow down as battles start to spread out and enemy casters start to slow them down. Melee martial not fun at high level (save for perhaps paladin).

I do agree they should have added bonus spell lists to the sorcerer. Not sure why they didn't. 15 spells is ridiculously weak. Metamagic isn't good enough to make up for the limit.

Let's not also pretend you can't convert spell slots into more sorcery points to twin more. You're attacking at range. As you admitted, you shine pretty bright AoE. Mr. Barbarian looks good now. We'll see how he looks at higher level.

Though I will admit the sorcerer needs some tweaking. I can see why they put this limit in. It affects the Evoker as well and makes Sorcerer and Evoker consistent. Twinning might lead to problems with future spells they may design. Specifically for scorching ray and magic missile, I don't see an issue.