D&D 5E How much healing, how much mitigation for a warlord?

Tony Vargas said:

Look I'm sorry to have you splitting hairs like this between equivalent and substitute and identical. I certainly don't want this to degenerate into posting dictionary definitions.

Look at it another way: Isn't it better to have both than only one or the other, and better still to have flexibility in how you assign resources to one or the other?

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Originally, my point was that I don't care either way because the two are functionally equivalent. Then someone asked if I would be okay with 100% mitigation. I would be okay with that.

I would also be okay with 100% HP recovery. Or any combination of Recovery and Mitigation. Because, frankly, it's like 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

While it would be nice, as Chris suggests, to have the perfect tool for every situation, if it comes down to it, and healing is the HUGE sticking point of opposition, I have no problem jettisoning healing for robust mitigation.

Would you? If the price of warlord was no HP recovery, would you be willing to pay it? I would, if part of warlord included mitigation.

ChrisCarlson said:

I agree. In fact I think warlords should just have everything possible. That way they are flexible enough to do everything you want them to. They should never be without the ideal, perfect option in any situation. When are we going to see this class already? I'm champing at the bit to get a gander at this monster.

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Go check out the Druid, I think you'll find what you're looking for. ;-)

Bawylie said:

Would you? If the price of warlord was no HP recovery, would you be willing to pay it? I would, if part of warlord included mitigation.

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I'm ok with mitigation abilities only with 2 caveats.

1) The class should have a method of returning a 0 hp character back to functioning. Doesn't have to be a hp heal, but getting them up is crucial to a 5e support type class.

2) Ideally, at least one subclass should have hp healing and condition restoration capabilities.

IMO:

Inspiring word: "As a bonus action an ally can spend upto 1/2 of it's maximum hit dice to regain hit points. A creature can only benefit from this once per short rest."

Which is just enough to get someone off the ground, with no actual "healing", only bring out someone's own personal reserves.

Then make an healing subclass that boost healing (+cha for each die spent, lesser restoration), which can be schrodinger's-magic (both magical and non-magical at the same time, depending on who looks).

The rest is mitigation/buffs. Plenty of THP, reaction to make attacks miss or allies saves, (dis)advantage to (be) hit (by) stuff.

TwoSix said:

I'm ok with mitigation abilities only with 2 caveats.

1) The class should have a method of returning a 0 hp character back to functioning. Doesn't have to be a hp heal, but getting them up is crucial to a 5e support type class.

2) Ideally, at least one subclass should have hp healing and condition restoration capabilities.

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Agreed. Though I would be okay if the "get up from zero" ability lived in the HP healing subclass. Id also be ok if that subclass were explicitly magical, provided the baseline W was not.

Isn't it better to have both than only one or the other, and better still to have flexibility in how you assign resources to one or the other? Not 'nice,' but strictly better.

Inspiration justifies both hp recovery and temp-hp mitigation, and tactics justify a wide range of more situational forms of mitigation.

Tony Vargas said:

Isn't it better to have both than only one or the other, and better still to have flexibility in how you assign resources to one or the other? Not 'nice,' but strictly better.

Inspiration justifies both hp recovery and temp-hp mitigation, and tactics justify a wide range of more situational forms of mitigation.

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Having both is strictly better then having one. But because classes need to be balanced, strictly better is not strictly better.

Wizard's get a large selection of spells. Their flexibility is a part of their power.
Sorcerer's have limited spells. Restricting flexibility means they can put power in other areas (metamagic).

Similarly, giving the warlord more flexibility in healing and mitigation, means you won't get power elsewhere.


That said, there's room for both. The "resourceful" sub-class could give you both healing and mitigation, using flexibility as it's power. And another one can get get an extra bonus action/dice/meta-maneuver points or whatever.

I voted 20 percent healing and 80 percent mitigation, but I would say that my preferred ratio would be in the range of 20-30 percent healing and 70-80 percent mitigation. A number of posters throughout various threads have proposed means for the warlord to "heal" without necessarily healing conventionally as per a spell caster: e.g. allowing allies to activate HD in-combat, inspiration dice, etc. I posted some of my own ideas regarding healing options here.

There seems to be a lot of people saying that healing and mitigation are equivalent. I say they aren't, and that's a great niche to put the warlord. Healing is retroactive, mitigation doesn't have to be.

I don't want "oh look, it's the same as the cleric". I'd rather have thing that are demonstrably, wildly, their own. Reaction to parry close attack for an all-or-nothing instead of heal/mitigate XdY HPs of damage. Push people out of areas of effect, make an effective shield wall and give everyone in it +2 AC, etc.

I'm not pushing for Warlord personally, but it looks like there is a lot of interest and I'm not one to say "badwrongfun, only my way is correct!". So let's make a cool warlord. And if people are asking for opinions (as a poll does), I would suggest instead of making them a healer clone to give them their own niche that is demonstratively mechanically different. Not a drop-in-replacement for a healer, but something that could play nice with a healer in the party if you have one. Maybe go with something like song of rest for out-of-combat healing, and action (proactive) or reaction based mitigation instead of later healing.

mellored said:

Having both is strictly better then having one. But because classes need to be balanced, strictly better is not strictly better.

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Existing support-contributing classes have both, have tremendous flexibility in choosing which to use, and have further flexibility to do blasting, rituals, single-target control, battlefield control, and a host of other things, including shapechanging and turning undead.

Balancing the Warlord is going to be a challenge, but not because there's any need to take things away from it to balance it with other support casters. The challenge is, how do you make a class that was so focused on "Leader" support abilities, which now constitute only a fraction of what other former-Leader-role classes now do in 5e, balance with those classes? More battle-field control through tactics? Some single-target control through 'hectoring?' Some improved personal offense via maneuvers? There's a lot of design space out there that the existing martial classes haven't touched, and it's not like 5e has been shy about classes overlapping eachother, either...

Blue said:

There seems to be a lot of people saying that healing and mitigation are equivalent. I say they aren't, and that's a great niche to put the warlord. Healing is retroactive, mitigation doesn't have to be.

I don't want "oh look, it's the same as the cleric".

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The Druid and Bard are both full castes who fill the support role with some of the exact same spells as the Cleric. So, we certainly don't need more of that!

However, just by virtue of not casting spells or having supernatural abilities, at all, the Warlord is already more distinct from the Cleric class than any other support-contributing class or sub-class, bar none.

I'm not pushing for Warlord personally, but it looks like there is a lot of interest and I'm not one to say "badwrongfun, only my way is correct!". So let's make a cool warlord.

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That is a fine & noble attitude. Hard to live up to, sometimes, but a good ideal to keep in mind.

And if people are asking for opinions (as a poll does), I would suggest instead of making them a healer clone to give them their own niche that is demonstratively mechanically different. Not a drop-in-replacement for a healer, but something that could play nice with a healer in the party if you have one. Maybe go with something like song of rest for out-of-combat healing, and action (proactive) or reaction based mitigation instead of later healing.

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You're not going to make a class 'cool' by taking most of it's toys away. While those might be nice additions to differentiate the Warlord, it's hp restoration is already necessarily going to be different from the Cure Wounds and similar spells shared all the existing support characters. Triggering HD, preferable with a bonus to help the party get through the day, is perhaps one of the most often-mentioned possibilities for Inspiring Word.