Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

Jester Canuck has a good point. Is there any class in 5e that is more than half buffer or support?

Every cleric, wizard or bard I have seen played has spent more than half their actions doing direct damage of some sort. Buffing is just something you do one or twice in a battle. Healing is done at the end, or rarely to stand someone up who has fallen. But most of the time is spent dealing damage.

Lord Twig said:

Is there any class in 5e that is more than half buffer or support?

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Yes & no. You could play a Cleric, Bard or even Druid as virtually all-support, since most of their power is in their full neo-Vancian spell-casting, and that spellcasting is very flexible, so you could prep all 'support' spells and be much more than 'half support.' Most of the time you wouldn't because keeping some of that flexibility open over the course of the day would be far more effective in most adventuring situations.

Even if a full casters chose to go 'all support' when prepping spells, he'd still have a great deal of flexibility from round to round when it came to what sort of support to provide - healing vs mitigation vs buffing etc - and that's something that any character that's going to be the main source of such contributions for his party needs, because support needs can be very reactive and situational in nature.

Lord Twig said:

Jester Canuck has a good point. Is there any class in 5e that is more than half buffer or support?

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Depends on how you build it.

I can make a bard does no damage, and still be effective.
Or i can make one that does 70% support, 30% damage.
Or 50% support, 50% damage.
Or 30% support, 70% damage.
(hard to go much lower with a bard without losing effectiveness).

A fighter can, go from
100% damage, 0% buff
to
50% damage, 50% buff.

but no higher. And that 50% took a bit of char-opping to not lose effectiveness.

That leaves the entire 100% to 50% martial support range unfulfilled.

Every cleric, wizard or bard I have seen played has spent more than half their actions doing direct damage of some sort. Buffing is just something you do one or twice in a battle.

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Cleric, wizard, and bard buffs last for multiple turns.

If you cast greater invisibility on the sharpshooter fighter, and cast firebolt 3 times, you may have spent more actions dealing damage, but your spend more resourced on buffing for a bigger impact.

And just to backup my assertion...

level 11
SSfighter no buff 1d8+15 * (.7 - .25) = 8.775 * 3 = 26.325
SSfighter with buff 1d8+15 * (.6975) = 13.60125 * 3 = 40.80375
net = 14.47875 * 4 turns = 57.915

firebolt 3d10 * .6 = 9.9 * 3 turns = 29.7

66% buff, 33% damage.

ChrisCarlson said:

No. I'm saying (and others have said as well) that the essence of the warlord -- as filtered through a 5e set of design criteria, system aesthetic, and balance considerations -- has been provided already. Via multiple avenues. But what some people are asking for (way more and sooner) is not doable. It is asking for too much. And that cannot be done. At least not without breaking it.

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Are you saying a BattleMaster 4 (for attack granting, and THP)/ Mastermind 3 (for ranged Help) with the Healer feat (for non-magical Hit Point recovery - even from Unconscious) is broken?

Attack Granting is in the rules at 3rd (Battle Master Commanding Strike maneuver).
Hit Point as 'not necessarily wounds' is in the rules at 1st (Fighter Second Wind), Short Rest HD healing, and overnight full recovery.
Ranged help at 3rd (Mastermind).
The Healer feat (available at 1st for Alt Humans and 4th for others) does non-magical healing even from unconsciousness (not including the Natural 20 - self-inspiration).

So I guess the question is: if by the rules currently one could bring 3 core features on line at 7th with multiclassing, at what level could a full class bring them all online while not gaining all the extra abilities inconsistent with a Martial support class? (Sneak Attack, extra skills, Expertise, Second Wind, Action Surge, damage focused maneuvers)

Individually none of those seem broken at 3rd, and between a party one could have them all at 3rd. So what precisely would be broken by having them all come on line by 3rd in a full Warlord class write-up?

jodyjohnson said:

Are you saying a BattleMaster 4 (for attack granting, and THP)/ Mastermind 3 (for ranged Help) with the Healer feat (for non-magical Hit Point recovery - even from Unconscious) is broken?

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The opposite. I'm saying that's a pretty awesome representation of a warlord in 5e. Works for me.

Why does it not for you?

But the caster isn't spending every round convincing the Fighter he should attack more. He casts a spell then does some damage himself. The Bard casts Greater Invisibility (a 4th level spell btw) then throws some damage down range. The Cleric casts Bless then starts bashing heads. Etc.

In every case the caster is using a spell that they are not going to get back until they rest, and probably 8 hours of rest.

So perhaps that is the direction we should be looking for the Warlord? He rallies the troops (or whatever) on the first turn then spend the remaining rounds actually fighting. Then he needs to rest for 8 hours before he can encourage people to fight better than they would normal be fighting if he wasn't there telling them they should fight better.

Ok, that last part is a little (read: a lot) silly, but how else are you going to balance it against the casters? Every spell they cast to buff an ally is one less spell they have to do anything else that might be needed. What resource is the Warlord working with?

But the caster isn't spending every round convincing the Fighter he should attack more.

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Effectively, yes they are.

The caster, with haste, is "encouraging" the fighter to get an extra attack every round.

Edit: Particularly if it's a bard. I can just hear him singing "eye of the tiger" the whole time he's concentrating, until some smacks him upside the head to make him shut up.

Lord Twig said:

Every spell they cast to buff an ally is one less spell they have to do anything else that might be needed. What resource is the Warlord working with?

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One way is to look at what level is required to make a support spell effectively at-will (i.e. enough slots to have it running every battle). Then copy it and reduce it a bit since there's greater flexibility. (You can't switch spells easily).
For example....

A cleric 5 can have bless (+1d4 to 3 people) every combat, and 2d8 (9) sacred flame.
so..
A marshal 5 could use his bonus action to give one person +1d4 to-hit, and deal 1d8+3 (7.5) as his action.


A wizard 11 can have haste (1 attack, double speed, +2 AC, advantage on Dex) running every round, and 3d10 (16.5) firebolt all the others.
So...
A marshal 11 could use a bonus action to grant 1 attack every round, and do 2 attacks 1d8+4 (17) as his action.


A bard 17 can use foresight (advantage on attacks, and defense), plus all the other slots.
So..
A marshal 17 could give advantage to anyone who attacks the same target as him, without using his bonus action.


That can give you a starting point.
Then you playtest it.

Lord Twig said:

But the caster isn't spending every round convincing the Fighter he should attack more. He casts a spell then does some damage himself. The Bard casts Greater Invisibility (a 4th level spell btw) then throws some damage down range. The Cleric casts Bless then starts bashing heads. Etc.

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That is much more effective than needing to spend an action every round, yes.

So perhaps that is the direction we should be looking for the Warlord? He rallies the troops (or whatever) on the first turn then spend the remaining rounds actually fighting.

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Or does specific actions like 'rallying' when they're called for, and fights most other rounds (setting aside, for the sake of the hypothetical, how short 5e fights can be).

Then he needs to rest for 8 hours before he can encourage people to fight better than they would normal be fighting if he wasn't there telling them they should fight better.

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That's a little on-the-nose-4e, and doesn't make a lot of sense for 5e. Now, the 'troops' needing to rest before they can be rallied again, that could make some sense...

how else are you going to balance it against the casters?

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That's always been the great imponderable. 4e only succeeded in balancing non-casters against casters by reining in casters to an unprecedented degree (from dozens of spells/day to only 3 or 4 dailies, for instance) /and/ giving non-casters unprecedented choice and resource-management. Bo9S took a stab at it by ratcheting up a new set of non-casters (and making at least one of them essentially casters). 5e doesn't do either of those, so it's a problem that'd be very hard to solve in a purely mechanical way.

Every spell they cast to buff an ally is one less spell they have to do anything else that might be needed.

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Then again, they start with several spell slots and get more and more as they level, so it's not /that/ meaningful a limitation, and becomes less meaningful even as spells get more powerful.

What resource is the Warlord working with?

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Conceptually: His allies, primarily. Information, planning, and leveraging the situation tactically as it develops. And, in a sense, his enemies (mistakes they make, vulnerabilities, their motivation, etc).

mellored said:

[/COLOR]Effectively, yes they are.

The caster (with haste), is "encouraging" the fighter to get an extra attack every round.

One way is to look at what level is required to make a support spell effectively at-will (i.e. enough slots to have it running every battle). Then copy it and reduce it a bit since there's greater flexibility. (You can't switch spells easily).
For example....

A cleric 5 can have bless (+1d4 to 3 people) every combat, and 2d8 (9) sacred flame.
so..
A marshal 5 could use his bonus action to give one person +1d4 to-hit, and deal 1d8+3 (7.5) as his action.


A wizard 11 can have haste (1 attack, double speed, +2 AC, advantage on Dex) running every round, and 3d10 (16.5) firebolt all the others.
So...
A marshal 11 could use a bonus action to grant 1 attack every round, and do 2 attacks 1d8+4 (17) as his action.


A bard 17 can use foresight (advantage on attacks, and defense), plus all the other slots.
So..
A marshal 17 could give advantage to anyone who attacks the same target as him, without using his bonus action.


That can give you a starting point.
Then you playtest it.

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Awesome! Let's do this.

Fighter subclass: The Marshal

3rd level: Effective Assist: As a bonus action you can grant +1d4 to the attack roll of all attacks that target a single enemy you have just successfully hit for 1 round.

7th level: Rally Friends: As a bonus action you can grant temporary Hit Points equal to your Int mod to 4 allies within 30'. They must be able to see or hear you to gain this bonus.

10th level: Create Opening: As a bonus action you can allow an ally to spend their Reaction to make a single melee attack against an opponent you have just successfully hit. This counts as the ally's Opportunity Attack for the round.

15th level: Improved Effective Assist: Pick one target you have successfully hit this round. Anyone who attacks that target gains Advantage on their attack roll for one round. This ability stacks with Effective Assist if both are used.

18th level: Warlord Tactics: Your keen battlefield awareness allows you to simultaneously help all of your allies offense or defense. As a bonus action you can add your Intelligence bonus to the attack rolls, armor class, or saves of all allies within 30'. They must be able to see or hear you to gain this bonus.

There you go. And I don't even like the concept of the Warlord.

Edit: Level 15 ability was too good. Clarified level 3 ability.

Lord Twig said:

Awesome! Let's do this.

Fighter subclass: The Marshal

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You missed the part where it's balanced at 2 attacks at level 11. Fighter has 3.
And no fighting style or action surge either.

Which is exactly why it doesn't fit in with the fighter.


That said, i like all those features. So good job on the concept.