D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

CapnZapp said:

As for the Bladesinger topic, I feel there's been a burst of good quality discussion here, and I guess my point is that there's two ways to write a guide on the concept:

One where you smugly and slyly reveals all the tricks (including mc) needed to get that good old Bladesinger feeling; trusting Wotc to have added this layer of system mastery by choice.

Or the guide can complain about how the various offered features don't easily work together, and feel "off" for the concepts you desire.

You might have taken my complaints against your guide, when I essentially say it's the second guide, as fault-finding.

But really, I would hope you take my criticism in a better light: the reason I respond in such detail is that I trust you to make that first guide.

Perhaps I have been too blunt about it, but I really think you can create that really great, optimistic, self-confident guide!

That doesn't mean I won't acknowledge weaknesses in WotC's approach. I just think it makes for a much better read to let them slide, and to focus on what we have, rather than to talk about what we didn't get.

Regards

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In regards to the tone of the guide, I do see your point. I normally write a guide with a glass (or a few) of wine, and, if I recall, that glass was sadly absent when I wrote my Bladesinger evaluation, and there's no question some of that cocky self-assured attitude comes in liquid form

As for rewriting the guide, I will consider it (if I find myself inspired to do so at some point). No promises, but whether I do or not, I do understand and agree with the point you made. If I do, I will make sure to let you know!

Thank you for taking my criticism in stride.

NADRIGOL said:

Hmm... I had also overlooked the "both classes" stats aspect of multiclassing in 5e. While it doesn't affect my fighter/bladesinger, I'd be interested to hear how TreantMonk made it work with his PallySinger... 13,14,11,14,8,13. He mentioned longswords several times, so maybe he built strength with its drawbacks 14,12,12,14,8,13. I'm not sure how I'd go about it. Would be interested to hear how he did it.

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Just as an update. Played last night and took out the BBG in one hit. If your DM allows a relaxed multi-class requirement - Wrathful smite + Booming Blade is pretty amazing.

My first impression after reading this (it's excellent, by the way, thank you) was "Treantmonk's Guide to Abjurations, Illusions and Walls." I was struck by how relatively poorly the pure control spells fared in the ratings, and this actually matches my assessment of 5e. The control spells -- particularly old standbys such as holds, charms, and a variety of conjurations -- have really taken a hit, especially from concentration and repeating save ends. Of the twenty-four blue-rated spells in the guide, less than half could be identified as control: pyrotechnics, hypnotic pattern, major image, evard's black tentacles, watery sphere, wall of force, mass suggestion, forcecage, maze, prismatic wall and time stop.

Obviously, the count of blue-rated spells is only one measure, but I found it really striking in a guide with this specific focus.

I've been thinking about the blue rating given to bladesinger as a 2 level dip for EK... I don't think I value it so highly in my mind. Here are some DPR maths I did for a few EK/BS combos.

First a Fighter 1 / Bladesinger 19, named Alexander.
This Singer dipped Fighter at first level for TWF style, con saves, and some bonus HP. He takes dual wielder at 1 as a human, warcaster at 4, and ASI the rest of his levels.
He has two rapiers. As shown in red, he alternates between standard two weapon attacks and green flame blade depending on level and number/toughness of baddies. Haste is his jam once he picks it up and can use the haste attack to proc his TW attack. This in combo with his bonus INT to damage gives him melee DPR previously unknown to Wizard kind. He's one level shy of pure Wizard... so he has many spell slots to burn on Haste, shield, and other buff spells, while still maintaining decent battlefield control.
Alexander feels like a sword swinging melee magic god.


Next, a pure EK, named Brutus.
He takes great weapon master at 1, warcaster at 4, and loads up on ASI's later.
He's a greatsword user, becasue he's all about DPR. Once he gets green flame blade and/or booming blade he rarely looks back. Great weapon master is always an option. He can't cast a tonne of spells... But he's mostly here to abuse the new cantrips in a move for DPR king.
Brutus feels like an arcane engine of pure annihilation.


Finally, here's our EK 18 / BS 2, named George.
He dipped BS after his first fighter level. He did this because TWF seemed impractical without the new cantrips, but he loved how cool he looked with double rapiers. He did this because adding INT to his AC seemed like a better long-term plan than stumbling across magical armor. He did this to get spells like Haste just a little bit sooner.
He also uses two rapiers. His EK levels eventually give him a bonus attack when he uses the new cantrips, which is cool. He doesn't get haste for a while, but it's fun when he does. He only gets one more attack with haste, since his EK bonus attack uses the BA TWF needs. He has a few more spells than the pure EK, but not many, and he never reached high level spells.
George feels sad when he sees Alexander output more DPR and spells than him. George feels sad when he sees Brutus output way more DPR than him. George has better AC than Brutus, and better HP than Alexander, but he just isn't feeling great about himself. George spends a lot of time in therapy.


My feelings are hinted at above... but I guess I just don't see the reason you'd land in the middle with George.
-Alexander is doing more DPR once he has Haste, and has virtually full spell casting. Sure Alexander is lacking some HP, but he is going to burn spell slots on shield, mirror image, and blur all the time, with way more spell slots to do so than George.
-Brutus is a DPR champ... He's just going to chill up there in his Plate with his giant sword, abusing the new cantrips in horrible ways... throw in GWM and Haste and his damage output is disgusting. And he gets nearly as many spells as George...

I guess my feelings are that George is just Green, and Alexander might deserve some Blue love.

I haven't evaluated BS as an AT rogue dip, but on the surface it makes much more sense. They're naturally a DEX based class, can abuse Haste to the same degree as a pure BS, and benefit hugely since they don't get a normal extra attack. I can easily imagine them deserving the Blue rating.

The Bladesinger is more effective than I thought it would be. The Booming Blade cantrip allows them to do more damage than the average wizard cantrip by far. Bladesong is pretty good in most combats. I have to say so far I must reverse my opinion. The Bladesinger seems pretty damn effective.

Treantmonk comes out with the best guide again! Bravo, good sir!

Celtavian said:

The Bladesinger is more effective than I thought it would be. The Booming Blade cantrip allows them to do more damage than the average wizard cantrip by far. Bladesong is pretty good in most combats. I have to say so far I must reverse my opinion. The Bladesinger seems pretty damn effective.

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Do you think it's too effective? Because looking at the example characters above, you're getting +50% to +100% damage.

Quartz said:

Do you think it's too effective? Because looking at the example characters above, you're getting +50% to +100% damage.

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No. I don't think they're too effective unless you compare it to a standard mage when it comes to AC. A bladesinger when bladesinging has a much higher AC than a regular mage. This makes regular mages appear pretty weak at times. It's definitely a different style of play with this player. He feels more confident entering melee range. He still has pretty low hit points and gets beat down quick when he does get hit. He has been effective because the melee cantrips are effective. Given he is in danger more than a ranged mage, more effective melee cantrips make sense.

My personal opinion is that the bladesinger is more effective than I thought it would be. Just as we all surmised, the archetype has very little group utility. It's more of an individual glorification class. It can do some nifty stuff in melee combat due to spell versatility. The melee cantrips are more effective than the generic mage cantrips when it comes to dealing damage. The lack of hit points is still a weakness that can hurt the class. They are more capable of entering melee than a standard mage due to the higher AC. You can add a lot of bang to your melee cantrips with a couple of paladin levels once you obtain divine smite for a good amount of burst damage with a lot of spell slots.

Still not the powerhouse damage dealer an eldritch knight archer is or the general pain in the ass of a single classed paladin. They're just different. Not a power build, but maybe upper tier middle of the pack build like an archer ranger. Looks good at lower level and slows down at higher level when other classes like warlocks and fighters start to get more attacks and abilities.

I was re-reading the guide recently, had a couple of comments, may add more at some point:

(1) RE: healing,

* Why isn't the Healer useful in combat? There are two ways you can live your "pretend" life - "reactively" or "proactively". The God Wizard will alter reality to prevent damage, a healer will try to do "damage control" (pun intended) after the damage has been taken. Simple truth: The mechanics of the game make preventing damage more efficient then healing damage after the fact. That's not to say a well placed "Healing Word” doesn’t have it’s place in combat, but preferably the Cleric is doing that in between laying the smack-down on the enemy.

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It's not clear whether the bolded is intended to apply specifically to in-combat healing or is a generic observation, but in the general case it's actually untrue. Except in the deadliest of fights (10x Deadly or so), out-of-combat is generally more efficient than damage prevention in terms of spell points-per-encounter. Where damage prevention has the edge is in risk management, not efficiency. Spending a sorcery point and five spell points on Extended Aura of Vitality may heal 240 HP of damage (with a Life Cleric dip), whereas preventing 60 out of 90 HP of damage with Wall of Force costs 7 spell points and still requires you to spend more on healing the 30 points of damage that you did take--but Wall of Force pretty much guarantees that nobody will die in this combat and that matters immensely.

So, for easy fights, you can rely on just healing the damage afterwards, but for tough fights break out the proactive damage prevention.

(2) I saw a comment that "Guards and Wards" doesn't have much use in actual adventuring, but it's actually pretty fantastic because of the "no friendly fire" clause and the 10 minute casting time. If you can sneak into the Red Dragon's lair and buy yourself ten minutes, you can set yourself up with a defensive hard point to fall back into at any time, allowing you to strafe him and/or his minions at low risk. Anyone who follows you into your hard point gets hit, at no action economy cost to you, with heavy obscurement (to which you are immune, granting effective Greater Invisibility to all of the PCs), Web spells on every stairway (make one if you have to), and either Suggestion or Stinking Cloud in a location of your choice--I recommend putting Stinking Cloud on top of a Web so the enemy can't use his action to break free of the Web.

Having a fallback point completely changes the nature of a fight, enables hit-and-run tactics, lets you leverage out-of-combat healing more effectively, makes it easier to use illlusions, etc.

For example, TreantMonk mentions having trouble coming up with a good use for Arcane Gate, but if the other end of Arcane Gate connects to the middle of a heavily obscured, Webbed stairway which Suggests to anyone who arrives there that they need to 'throw down your weapons and surrender immediately', I think you can see how Arcane Gate becomes a crackerjack assault spell for taking an enemy hardpoint. PC zips through, kills an enemy, step back through the Arcane Gate. Any enemies which follow to attack get taken out of play. Even if they succeed on all their saves, they are isolated and alone and will be quickly killed, thus completely justifying the "surrender immediately" suggestion as a "reasonable" one.

(3) RE:

Magic Jar: Possession that lasts until dispelled. You can possess multiple creatures (one at a time) by use of a single casting of this spell. Create some serious havoc by casting this spell beforehand, and having an ally throw the gem into a room of enemies and shut and spike the door shut. Wait until your own body reanimates to tell them that everyone inside is dead. The cost of this spell is 500gp, so nothing to sneeze at, but it’s pretty potent.

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Since Magic Jar lets you take permanent possession of any humanoid, the best thing to do with it is to capture a Werebear or Weretiger (if necessary, create one using True Polymorph) and take possession of it. Now you have 50% or 100% more HP, possibly higher Dex, and are immune to normal weapons.