D&D 5E 5e question - skill vs tool

Shades of Eternity · Feb 10, 2016

I'm trying to wrap my head around these concepts so I can build stuff.

If we build our own skill that is outside the standard choices in the srd, how do we know when it would be necessary?

Also when do you require proficiency in a tool and how do you figure when it is required.

thanks in advance.

iserith · Feb 10, 2016

Consider thinking about it this way:

An ability check is a mechanic the DM calls for when what the player describes he or she wants the character to do has an uncertain outcome (in the eyes of the DM). The outcome is not certainly success or certainly failure, but somewhere in between.

At this point, the DM has six ability checks to choose from, one for each ability score. He or she considers the player's stated goal and approach, the fictional situation, and the stakes (what happens when the check is successful and what happens when it is not), sets a DC, and calls for the ability check.

Now the player has the option to ask the DM if a particular skill or tool applies to the resolution of this action. (Wherever it makes sense to, players should be doing stuff their characters are good at as this is smart play.) If the DM agrees, then the player applies the relevant bonus to the ability check.

If you think about the resolution method in this manner, all of your questions should be answered. Please let me know if that's not the case.

Tony Vargas · Feb 10, 2016

Shades of Eternity said:
If we build our own skill that is outside the standard choices in the srd, how do we know when it would be necessary?

I'd just hesitate to create new skills. Rather, when confronted with a task, pick the skill that's closest to covering it.

Also when do you require proficiency in a tool and how do you figure when it is required.

Tool proficiency seems a lot more open-ended.

If you add a skill to the game, everyone becomes less skilled, because there are now more skills they aren't proficient in. Conversely, if you add a new tool proficiency to the game, anyone concerned about becoming less of a tool-user because of it can take some downtime and learn it.

Use tool proficiency when there's a tool that's needed to perform the task at all. For any other task, use the closest skill (or rule that no proficiency applies).

Shades of Eternity · Feb 10, 2016

okay let's say we've decided to add punch card computing to a game (I'm looking at you ultima III).

would that be just a intelligence, or would it require it's own skill.

If it is switched over to a more modern game, how would you know where you can lump for basic tasks (ex. use computer, use vehicle) and when a new skill is required?

iserith · Feb 10, 2016

Shades of Eternity said:
okay let's say we've decided to add punch card computing to a game (I'm looking at you ultima III).

would that be just a intelligence, or would it require it's own skill.

Using a punch card computer to perform a task with an uncertain outcome could be an Intelligence check. Those who have proficiency in a skill or tool related to punch card computing could then conceivably add their proficiency bonus to the check in addition to their Intelligence modifier.

It's important to remember that the adjudication isn't "If use computer, then make Intelligence check." A vital step in the process is missing here - that being, the DM has to decide if using the computer to achieve a specific outcome is uncertain or not. The DM may decide that using the computer to perform a given task automatically succeeds or automatically fails. It's only when the DM is not sure whether it succeeds or fails that an ability check is called for.

Shades of Eternity said:
If it is switched over to a more modern game, how would you know where you can lump for basic tasks (ex. use computer, use vehicle) and when a new skill is required?

I would suggest checking out games designed for modern settings. D&D ain't one of those and how they recommend the GM adjudicate actions may be entirely different.

Jester David · Feb 10, 2016

Something is a tool when you require a physical item for a task, and the results of a task might be improved with knowledge of that tool.
Anyone can try picking a lock, but you need tools to do so without disadvantage and proficiency to be good with lock picks. Driving isn't a skill, but proficiency in the "car" tool since without the object you cannot even attempt a check. Anyone should be able to drive under ideal circumstances, but specialization is needed when things get crazy behind the wheel.

Something is a skill rather than an ability check when there are multiple redundant and connected abilities or uses. A Hypnosis skill could just be an Intelligence check, but since the skill could be used to out someone in a trance, extract information, implant a suggestion, bring out a possessing entity or multiple personality, or aid in therapy the multiple related uses suggest it could be a skill.

Computer use could go either way, being proficient in the computer tool or a skill.

Saeviomagy · Feb 11, 2016

Fundamentally if you want your players to be able to learn to do something by spending 200 days of downtime, make it a tool. Otherwise make it a skill. That's the only distinction that is consistent and the only thing that will matter to your game.

nomotog · Feb 11, 2016

Shades of Eternity said:
I'm trying to wrap my head around these concepts so I can build stuff.

If we build our own skill that is outside the standard choices in the srd, how do we know when it would be necessary?

Also when do you require proficiency in a tool and how do you figure when it is required.

thanks in advance.

Proficiency/skills are never required. They are just nice to have. You can include a new skill of tool proficiency for any action you want to be better at.

Something to keep in mind is that overlap isn't a bad thing. If you have two proficiency's that could apply to an action, then you just add your proficiency bonus. If you wanted to make a class or feat that gave you proficiency in moving silently, then go for it. If someone has both stealth and move silently it just means they get a bit of overlap.

I'm A Banana · Feb 11, 2016

Shades of Eternity said:
I'm trying to wrap my head around these concepts so I can build stuff.

If we build our own skill that is outside the standard choices in the srd, how do we know when it would be necessary?

Also when do you require proficiency in a tool and how do you figure when it is required.

thanks in advance.

To a large degree, you don't worry about it too much.

The distinction basically seems to be that a skill is something you can do if you are standing naked in an empty room. A tool is something that you need an item do do.

That's why Performance is a skill (you can sing a song or do a dance if you're naked in an empty room), but playing an instrument is a tool (you can't play the drums if you don't have drums to play).

That's why Animal Handling is a skill (if you're naked in an empty room with a horse, you can still handle that horse), but driving a vehicle is a tool (you can't make that horse pull a cart if you don't have a cart to pull).

Etc.

I've personally used tool proficiency to also represent knowledge about the craft, as well. Discerning metallurgy, forex, would be an Int check. If you're proficient in smith's tools, add proficiency to it, too.

nomotog · Feb 11, 2016

I'm A Banana said:
To a large degree, you don't worry about it too much.

The distinction basically seems to be that a skill is something you can do if you are standing naked in an empty room. A tool is something that you need an item do do.

That's why Performance is a skill (you can sing a song or do a dance if you're naked in an empty room), but playing an instrument is a tool (you can't play the drums if you don't have drums to play).

That's why Animal Handling is a skill (if you're naked in an empty room with a horse, you can still handle that horse), but driving a vehicle is a tool (you can't make that horse pull a cart if you don't have a cart to pull).

Etc.

I've personally used tool proficiency to also represent knowledge about the craft, as well. Discerning metallurgy, forex, would be an Int check. If you're proficient in smith's tools, add proficiency to it, too.

You can't handle a horse without a horse. Isn't that the same issue with the vehicle or do we not count the horse as a tool because it's alive? What if the horse was a robot?

Is there really much of a difference between a skill and tool proficiency? I think every mechanic that applies to skills also applies to tool proficiency too. do we need a clear dividing line?

D&D 5E 5e question - skill vs tool

Shades of Eternity

Hero

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

Tony Vargas

Legend

Shades of Eternity

Hero

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

Jester David

Hero

Saeviomagy

Adventurer

nomotog

Explorer

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich

nomotog

Explorer

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