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D&D 5E Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I have no issue with people criticizing the game, but some of the underpinnings of thoe criticisms are based simply on how the group plays the game, as if how the game is played is unchangeable for them because there's no other way to have fun. To me it's like playing Life for a long time, then busting out Monopoly and complaining there are no blue and pink pegs to stick in the race car to represent your growing family. Maybe playing the game with different assumptions than you're used to is a good solution worth trying. I think that's especially true of a group that's been at it a while. Mixing it up could be a breath of fresh air that solves more issues than the 6-8 encounter adventuring day.

I don't disagree with your assertion.

But there are certain abilities in the game that are mechanically great no matter how you analyze it. For example, bless is an amazing spell. Sure, you won't need it in every situation, but it is extremely useful in a great many situations. It's a huge boost, even more so at the level you obtain it. A 1d4 on every attack and save for up to three people is immensely powerful in a game with Bounded Accuracy. I sometimes scratch my head at the designers when such a spell is available at such low level. My party builds around this spell for combat. It is a highly effective option in probably 80%+ of encounters. The other 20% is unnecessary because they are so easy that they require the use of no spell slots. Spells that good seem out of whack to me at times given the comparable power level of other spells. I'm also shocked when groups don't use bless. It's like purposely hamstringing yourself. Hard to understand. So far I haven't run a single party that did not use bless. I guess I don't see this as outside the game assumptions given how easy it is to acquire the bless spell. It's very easy for any group to build tactically around bless. It's difficult for DMs to counter it very often given unequal resource allocation necessary to do so. That is not to say it can't be done, but it can't be done very often or you're going out of your way as the DM to eliminate your player's toys. That will make them feel like you're going out of your way to screw them, which is never good situation.

Min-max players lock on to these optimal options very quickly. They start to build around them. It's trouble for the system, even though the system allows it by the rules. This idea you have of "goals of the game", well, such goals are very often individually based. If you try to tell someone not to do something because they're interfering with other people's fun, you're imposing your view of the game on them. That means a compromise must be reached or one of the parties must depart. When I'm in these situations, I see the game system as at fault for allowing the overpowered option, not the player for intelligently making a choice to choose that option. I imagine that is where our opinions may differ on game system criticism.
 

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Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I hope the Cleric has a light spell. Because neither Bedrock nor Edward has darkvision and not a torch between them. Bedrock could stick a candle on his helmet, maybe, and Edward can use his Third Eye 1/short rest. Otherwise, if it's dark inside the volcano, we're going to be rather embarrassed.

Bedrock: Thomas, lad, would you mind going out and "buying" some hooded lanterns from somewhere? Charge it to party funds, of course. I would go myself, but I need to go and talk to the king's wizard chap again.

Three characters with no Darkvision? That's like a sign over our head that says, "Flamestrike, please kill us. We're using a light spell while trying to stealth. Can you please ambush us and kill us. Thanks."

Bold Italic, you can't be kind to our group and make your wizard a gnome, hill dwarf, or high elf? There's great role-playing opportunities as a gnome. Lots of comedy. Dwarf mages are so against type that it makes for some fun role-play. I can stomach the human paladin. We want people to see that noisy bastard. He's the bait...er, I mean tank.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
As it happens, Edward has proficiency in Thieves' Tools (from his Urchin background) so he can use the Help action to give Thomas advantage with tricky locks and traps, if the situation arises. He also has a spare set of tools, but keep your voice down, we don't want everyone to know, do we? :D

Edward!?!? What happened to poor Lefty? :)
 

Azurewraith

Explorer
.

Bedrock: Thomas, lad, would you mind going out and "buying" some hooded lanterns from somewhere? Charge it to party funds, of course. I would go myself, but I need to go and talk to the king's wizard chap again.


"Its ok I have a couple torches and a hooded lantern, we can share. I mean half the city wants me dead on a minor miss understanding I would rather not have to go out side for something as trivial as a light source"
 

Azurewraith

Explorer
Three characters with no Darkvision? That's like a sign over our head that says, "Flamestrike, please kill us. We're using a light spell while trying to stealth. Can you please ambush us and kill us. Thanks."

Bold Italic, you can't be kind to our group and make your wizard a gnome, hill dwarf, or high elf? There's great role-playing opportunities as a gnome. Lots of comedy. Dwarf mages are so against type that it makes for some fun role-play. I can stomach the human paladin. We want people to see that noisy bastard. He's the bait...er, I mean tank.
This is one thing I hate about darkvision it becomes mandatory pretty much unless your in a place with other non darkvision monsters in which case why are they there?
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
This is one thing I hate about darkvision it becomes mandatory pretty much unless your in a place with other non darkvision monsters in which case why are they there?

Yep. Strange isn't it? You make a cool human or Halfling rogue, but you're likely to be screwed against kobolds because you have to carry this torch or lantern or use a light spell. It would be nice if given magic they made nightvision goggle's easily available. Given that technology is ubiquitous and highly useful to modern combatants, you would think in a magical world it would be an easily purchasable item.
 

Azurewraith

Explorer
Yep. Strange isn't it? You make a cool human or Halfling rogue, but you're likely to be screwed against kobolds because you have to carry this torch or lantern or use a light spell. It would be nice if given magic they made nightvision goggle's easily available. Given that technology is ubiquitous and highly useful to modern combatants, you would think in a magical world it would be an easily purchasable item.
So true I mean darkvision is what? 1st? 2ndlevel? Spell. They can creareva philosopher stone to do it. There are hooded lanterns but they only work if you know what is coming... even then it don't work your right.
 

Radaceus

Adventurer
one would think by 13th level a Human or Halfling dungeon crawler would have such and item with charges, the 2nd level spell Darkvision lasts for 8 hours...


EDIT: what i am referring to by '8 hours...' is a caster who can get spells back on a short rest ( Wizard Spell slots..Sorcery points, etc) can cast Darkvision and get the slots/points back.
 
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Azurewraith

Explorer
one would think by 13th level a Human or Halfling dungeon crawler would have such and item with charges, the 2nd level spell Darkvision lasts for 8 hours...


EDIT: what i am referring to by '8 hours...' is a caster who can get spells back on a short rest ( Wizard Spell slots..Sorcery points, etc) can cast Darkvision and get the slots/points back.
Unfortunately you cannot choose the ancient treasure left behind.
 

BoldItalic

First Post

"Its ok I have a couple torches and a hooded lantern, we can share. I mean half the city wants me dead on a minor miss understanding I would rather not have to go out side for something as trivial as a light source"

Edward: Good lad, Thomas. Where would we be without you? I'm sure that, after we get back this evening and we're all given titles, estates and unbearable amounts of wealth, we can come to some arrangement with people who might formerly have misunderstood us.

Bedrock: Spoken like a true gentleman, Edward. Now, to the matter in hand. Shouldn't your wizard-friend Myrkyn be back round about now with some maps or something? Wasn't that the arrangement? And I must say, the gods are cutting it a bit fine if they want one of their clerics to tag along. Perhaps they're having trouble finding one who glows in the dark, what?

Edward: :lol:

Thomas: :lol:
 
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