D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

Hriston said:

Notice that the rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice something/someone as a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It seems that you, and others who share your interpretation, have inserted that word "as" into the rulebook, putting an emphasis on the character or monster's own determination of whether something is a threat or not, rather than the objective truth of whether something is a threat that a straightforward reading of the rule would suggest. That is why I say that it doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It is objectively a threat, or it is not.



The rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't believe something/someone is a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." The question is, "Are the orcs objectively a threat?", and if so, "Are they perceived at all?"



If someone has the potential to suddenly decide to murder you, then in my opinion, that person is a threat and always was.

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KahlessNestor said:

But not necessarily as a threat.

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Sigh. Are you being deliberately obtuse on this, or are we talking past each other somehow? I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain it...

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Maybe some examples?

You have hust succeeded in bedding the princess and are comfortably ensconced beside the comely maiden in her luxurious bed. She leans over you and smiles, coming to kiss you, and pulls a dagger from beneath the pillow, plunging it at your chest. You are Surprised.

Or maybe she shifts into a hag. It doesn't matter. She is a threat you didn't perceive because this is unexpected behavior from a princess you just spent a passionate moment with! Tou are literally caught with your pants down.

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Hriston said:

Notice that the rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice something/someone as a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." It seems that you, and others who share your interpretation, have inserted that word "as" into the rulebook, putting an emphasis on the character or monster's own determination of whether something is a threat or not, rather than the objective truth of whether something is a threat that a straightforward reading of the rule would suggest. That is why I say that it doesn't matter whether a creature is perceived as a threat. It is objectively a threat, or it is not.



The rulebook doesn't say, "Any character or monster that doesn't believe something/someone is a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." The question is, "Are the orcs objectively a threat?", and if so, "Are they perceived at all?"



If someone has the potential to suddenly decide to murder you, then in my opinion, that person is a threat and always was.

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Hriston said:

There is no "as a threat." They either are a threat, or they are not.



No, I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I've been trying very hard to explain things. I don't feel that you've been at all receptive however, which has resulted in quite a bit of talking past each other.



I bolded the above to highlight what I think is the crux of the disagreement. I agree that she is a threat. That is quite clear from the fact that she is trying to kill you. What I disagree with is that you didn't perceive her. You most certainly did! You know full well that she is right there in bed with you. The fact that you didn't know she was a threat until she tried to put a dagger in you is irrelevant to the way surprise is determined according to the rulebook. Have her make a Sleight of Hand check versus Perception as she pulls the dagger from under the pillow to give her advantage on initiative is the way I'd do it.

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KahlessNestor said:

Yeah, now you're just being obtuse.

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secondhander said:

I'm often surprised at other people's interpretation of a rule that seems simple to me. Without meaning to sound rude to anyone, I think some of you guys have the idea wrong. I am definitely open to being shown that I am wrong, but it seems clear to me that the action and first round begin after the attack is made. There are no taskie backsies.

1 - Assassin (hidden): "I'm going to shoot my bow at the unaware guard!"
2 - DM: "You unleash your arrow from your hidden place. Roll initiative."
3 - Initiative is rolled. Guard wins.
4. - DM: "The guard is quick enough that he gets a reaction if he has one to take. As the arrow is flying in the air he sees it out of the corner of his eye. He takes his reaction, but if he doesn't have one, he is caught completely unaware."

And that's it. The guard is STILL surprised even if he is quick enough to take a last-second reaction to the incoming attack. (Of course he has to have a reaction ability to use, which most people don't.) Is there some rule I'm missing that says the action and initiative start before the attack is made?

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Hriston said:

I guess I wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that when the DM determines surprise, she is well aware of who is a threat and who is not. If someone doesn't pose a threat in the opinion of the DM then that creature doesn't need to be considered. As a DM, I would certainly consider the party a threat to any creature they are attacking. Then the question becomes, has the party been noticed by those to whom they pose a threat? If they are in the open, having a conversation, then the answer is most definitely yes! What I object to is that your interpretation relies on saying the PCs are not a threat when they have, by their very actions, proven (to the DM) that they are.

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Xetheral said:

I disagree completely. Surprise is character-specific, so it makes perfect sense to me that it should depend on each character's subjective determination of what is and is not a threat. Sure, there is also an objective truth as to whether or not something is a threat, but since IC characters cannot know that truth I see no reason that it should be in any way relevant to surprise.

I further disagree that the writers would have had to insert the word "as" to refer to subjective beliefs rather than objective truth. In the context of a character-specific determination I think subjectivity is implied even with the current wording.

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Hriston said:

How does this work out in play?

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