D&D 5E Is the major thing that's disappointing about Sorcerers is the lack of sorcery point options?

Originally doesn't matter, past edition bias is irrelevant. A class that you have to fill out all the details of can't be an interesting class: there's nothing there to be interesting.

It does matter, the sorcerer class is the only thing that keeps me from returning to 2e and not looking back. And what is better? A so called interesting class that can only produce about two viable builds and which all members are basically clones of each other, or another class that gives you room to produce viable snowflakes that are interesting on themselves? Why hold the sorcerer to this double standard? A wizard can do anything he/she wants regardless of school specialization, so does the bard, why do you insist so much on drowning the sorcerer on poisonous flavor?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Can a Warlock (effectively) break the Concentration limit with just a few Sorcery points? No he cannot.

Can a Wizard for disadvantage on saving throws against his spells? No he cannot.

Can the Bard reroll all those 1s when he casts that big AoE? No he cannot.

Your argument about fighters and action surges just doesn't work: A sorcerer without metamagic is just as effective as a fighter without extra attack. In each case they still have their full compliment of attacks, they still have their other defining features, they're both just down one part. Removing metamagic from the Sorcerer doesn't make it worse than, say, a Bard without Magical Secrets.

Where can a Sorcerer break the concrete Concentration limit of 1 Spell? Extended Spell does not stop you from having to Concentrate, it just extends the duration of a spell, and there is no other Metamagic that allows this. I have no idea what you're even referencing.

A Diviner Wizard doesn't give Disadvantage, he just tells you what you rolled on that save. The Sorcerer option costs 3 Sorcery Points for 1 Target. That's the equivalent of getting a 2nd level Spell back, or a 1st Level Spell and access to another Metamagic option.

A Bard can reroll all those 1s with a simple Feat he can grab at 1st or 4th level. The Evoker maximizes all their damage at 14th level for one big AoE, and can even suffer damage to do so again.

So ... yes. The other classes can do these things, and the Warlock one I just don't understand because a Sorcerer cannot break the Concentration limit with Sorcery points.



And now you go from saying that Metamagic makes the class flavorful and powerful, but say that losing it is on par to a Bard losing literally 6 Known Spells (8 with Lore) ...?

Six known spells.

Are equal to, and I quote here, "Sure I might not have many spells, but my spells will always have an edge over everyone else's thanks to metamagic."?

... I don't even have a response for that. You went from saying Metamagic was what distinguished the class from all other Arcane Spellcasters by giving Sorcerers "an edge over everyone" to now saying it is no more necessary to the class than a handful of optional spells for a Bard. Who knows more spells by default.



Agree to Disagree, here.
 

Can a Warlock (effectively) break the Concentration limit with just a few Sorcery points? No he cannot.

Can a Wizard for disadvantage on saving throws against his spells? No he cannot.

Can the Bard reroll all those 1s when he casts that big AoE? No he cannot.
Can a sorcerer have a familiar? no she cannot, can a sorcerer cause people to laugh with magic? nop. Can a sorcerer even afford to look human?
 

My favorite use of Metamagic is to slap Extended Spell on Aura of Vitality (Paladorc or multiclassed Lore Bard) to double the healing from 70 to 140 points.

My other favorite use of Metamagic is to cast Careful Web/Stinking Cloud to make kill zones that are hostile only to enemies.

I'm definitely not knocking Quicken Spell--e.g. a gish who does Quickened Hypnotic Pattern followed by a grapple + prone attack sequence on whichever enemy made his save--but it's so well-known that it cannot count as my favorite.
 

Where can a Sorcerer break the concrete Concentration limit of 1 Spell? Extended Spell does not stop you from having to Concentrate, it just extends the duration of a spell, and there is no other Metamagic that allows this. I have no idea what you're even referencing.

A Diviner Wizard doesn't give Disadvantage, he just tells you what you rolled on that save. The Sorcerer option costs 3 Sorcery Points for 1 Target. That's the equivalent of getting a 2nd level Spell back, or a 1st Level Spell and access to another Metamagic option.

A Bard can reroll all those 1s with a simple Feat he can grab at 1st or 4th level. The Evoker maximizes all their damage at 14th level for one big AoE, and can even suffer damage to do so again.

So ... yes. The other classes can do these things, and the Warlock one I just don't understand because a Sorcerer cannot break the Concentration limit with Sorcery points.



And now you go from saying that Metamagic makes the class flavorful and powerful, but say that losing it is on par to a Bard losing literally 6 Known Spells (8 with Lore) ...?

Six known spells.

Are equal to, and I quote here, "Sure I might not have many spells, but my spells will always have an edge over everyone else's thanks to metamagic."?

... I don't even have a response for that. You went from saying Metamagic was what distinguished the class from all other Arcane Spellcasters by giving Sorcerers "an edge over everyone" to now saying it is no more necessary to the class than a handful of optional spells for a Bard. Who knows more spells by default.



Agree to Disagree, here.

Hyperbole and nonesense.

First up. Twin. Twin haste, voila, twice as much haste as intended for the same amount of concentration.

The diviner can force a roll, yes. But only three times a day. And that's only useful to the sceanario if it's a low roll. The two are not equivalent.

There is no feat (count them, none) that allows spell damage to be rerolled. There is one for melee weapon attacks, but they're not spells, and certainly aren't AoE.

And clearly you don't know the difference between effective and flavourful. The Sorcerer, even without metamagic, is effective. Metamagic makes it flavourful and gives it an edge over other casters. Yes removing metamagic makes it less effective, but it doesn't make it not effective. It's also not the only thing Sorcerer's get flavour wise, from origin abilities to Font of Magic allowing you to customise your spell slots at will.
 


Can a Wizard for disadvantage on saving throws against his spells? No he cannot.

Does a Sorcerer have access to the best spells to exploit disadvantage? No, she does not.

There's so many cool tricks you want to play with sorcerers (Careful Evard's Black Tentacles! Black Dragon Sorc with Melf's Acid Arrow! Heightened Planar Binding! Extended Animate Dead!) and then get stymied because (among other reasons) it turns out they can't know the spell in question. Nobody even really knows why their spell list is as narrow as it is, because WotC doesn't explain their logic. Would it break any design considerations if you just gave sorcerers access to the wizard spell list? Who knows? At least in the DMG we get the explanation that spell slots are the default spellcasting method because WotC considers them "simpler" than spell points, but when it comes to the spells actually on the lists, we're in the dark. It looks as though Sorcerer spells could have been chosen (1) to keep them simpler, "intro" casters who don't have many complicated spells or decisions to make, or (2) to minimize metamagic synergies to prevent sorcerers from breaking game balance. WotC never says which one it is, and when they add new spells like in the EE Players' Companion, they also don't explain why certain spells are given only to wizards and druids, or only to warlocks and wizards. This occasionally raises a third suspicion, that (3) it's completely haphazard.

The cleric/wizard divide is pretty clear for historical reasons: only clerics can heal, only wizards can efficiently throw huge AoEs like Fireball, and other than that it's okay for them to overlap. Since sorcerers are a new thing, there's no history to guide us.

Honestly it would have been better for sorcerers to just draw from the wizard list.
 

Hyperbole and nonesense.

First up. Twin. Twin haste, voila, twice as much haste as intended for the same amount of concentration.

The diviner can force a roll, yes. But only three times a day. And that's only useful to the sceanario if it's a low roll. The two are not equivalent.

There is no feat (count them, none) that allows spell damage to be rerolled. There is one for melee weapon attacks, but they're not spells, and certainly aren't AoE.

And clearly you don't know the difference between effective and flavourful. The Sorcerer, even without metamagic, is effective. Metamagic makes it flavourful and gives it an edge over other casters. Yes removing metamagic makes it less effective, but it doesn't make it not effective. It's also not the only thing Sorcerer's get flavour wise, from origin abilities to Font of Magic allowing you to customise your spell slots at will.

I never called anything you said "nonsense". There's literally no reason for this level of dismissiveness and aggression.

Twin Haste is one, very specific example, when you made it sound as if a Sorcerer can literally break the Concentration limit on spells at will with Sorcery Points. If you were referencing a specific example, do not expect me to know that example without actually providing the example.

The Feat in question I misinterpreted, but it's still viable: Elemental Adept essentially doubles the damage in the "All 1s" scenario you posited, and overcomes Resistance, which the Sorcerer cannot do by default.



Long story short, you're attacking at this point, and this isn't really a discussion anymore, so I fail to see the point in continuing on. You insult my words, you insult my intellect, and I don't really know where this is coming from. I'm not belittling you nor have I, and I'm getting tired of the way you're doing so.
 

I never called anything you said "nonsense".
You're right, you only imply it.

Twin Haste is one, very specific example, when you made it sound as if a Sorcerer can literally break the Concentration limit on spells at will with Sorcery Points. If you were referencing a specific example, do not expect me to know that example without actually providing the example.
Okay then; Twin any-single-target-concentration-spell.

The Feat in question I misinterpreted, but it's still viable: Elemental Adept essentially doubles the damage in the "All 1s" scenario you posited, and overcomes Resistance, which the Sorcerer cannot do by default.
Elemental Adept is a far cry from outright rerolling though.
 

Does a Sorcerer have access to the best spells to exploit disadvantage? No, she does not.

There's so many cool tricks you want to play with sorcerers (Careful Evard's Black Tentacles! Black Dragon Sorc with Melf's Acid Arrow! Heightened Planar Binding! Extended Animate Dead!) and then get stymied because (among other reasons) it turns out they can't know the spell in question. Nobody even really knows why their spell list is as narrow as it is, because WotC doesn't explain their logic. Would it break any design considerations if you just gave sorcerers access to the wizard spell list? Who knows? At least in the DMG we get the explanation that spell slots are the default spellcasting method because WotC considers them "simpler" than spell points, but when it comes to the spells actually on the lists, we're in the dark. It looks as though Sorcerer spells could have been chosen (1) to keep them simpler, "intro" casters who don't have many complicated spells or decisions to make, or (2) to minimize metamagic synergies to prevent sorcerers from breaking game balance. WotC never says which one it is, and when they add new spells like in the EE Players' Companion, they also don't explain why certain spells are given only to wizards and druids, or only to warlocks and wizards. This occasionally raises a third suspicion, that (3) it's completely haphazard.

The cleric/wizard divide is pretty clear for historical reasons: only clerics can heal, only wizards can efficiently throw huge AoEs like Fireball, and other than that it's okay for them to overlap. Since sorcerers are a new thing, there's no history to guide us.

Honestly it would have been better for sorcerers to just draw from the wizard list.
Oh I agree completely, the Sorcerer needs a much bigger spell list. When you can't even make a decent draconic bloodline sorcerer without going one of about three types, something's wrong.
 

Remove ads

Top