D&D 5E Musing on Levels and Campaign Pacing.

So I'm shortly starting my frist ever 5e campaign and I wanted to get a feel for how progression would go. Should I plan a war against the kobolds or would the PCs quickly level out of battling kobolds by the third adventure? Should I plan my epic protagonist to be a CR 29 arch-fiend? Or would it take five years of real-world playing to get the characters ready. And did I need to mess with the XP levels in the book because that's something best done at the outset not mid-campaign when the players are busy working out what spells they want for when they reach level 9 next session, etc.

What I did was to take the XP requirements for each level, the XP budget for an encounter at that level (allowing for that rather hinkey adjustment mechanism depending on the number of monsters), and the do some basic arithmetic to see how many encounters are needed to reach the next level. I also set an average number of encounters per adventure to see how many adventures it would take to reach the next level as well. I did this for Medium and Hard budget adventures per the DMG guide. I didn't do "Deadly" because I don't imagine a campaign normally being made up of Deadly encounters on average. I also didn't do Easy encounters because I think most players find "challenge us by attrition and not allowing rests" to be dull play.

Now I've heard the DMG encounter guidelines are a bit shaky. I also know that there are several assumptions in the below that wont always hold. It's at best and average outcome per the DMG guidelines. What I'm curious about is to see how this matches up with people's experiences. And also any advice from people simply what they personally find good in terms of progression or pitfalls they run into. You don't have to caveat everything with "in my opinion" and "but play how you want" - I'm interested in people's personal takes.

I have a few more numbers on related items I could share as well if this is interesting to people. I can also attach the spreadsheet if people want to poke it do their own calculations for those who don't want to do things from scratch. Anyway, all thoughts welcome - I'm new at this and just trying to plan out a satisfying campaign.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not at all offended by telling me these numbers are way off if that's the case. They're based on calculations in the DMG. I think my reasoning is sound (probably) but my assumptions I got direct from WotC.

How many encounters / adventures required to reach the next level.
[TABLE="width: 860, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Level
[/TD]
[TD]#Medium Encounters
[/TD]
[TD]#Hard Encounters
[/TD]
[TD]#Adventures (Medium)
[/TD]
[TD]#Adventures (Hard)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]34[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD](479)
[/TD]
[TD](317)
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


(For those interested, assumptions are a party size of 4, an average of 4 monsters in an encounter and an average of 5 encounters per adventure. This works out at 96 adventures to reach 20th level with Medium difficulty encounters and 63 adventures at Hard difficulty. )

I found that in my very first 5e game I ran, using old modules, that PCs leveled to 3 quite quickly. They didn't actually make it to level 2 on the first adventure as there were lots of them and the adventure was short. Adventure 2 started off with little combat, so no leveling there. But by the end of adventure 2, which was only two sessions, they were level 2. By the end of adventure 3 they were all 3rd level and most hit level 4 at the beginning of adventure 4 (which was really really long).

If you plan on having some kind of longer term foe, the best I'd say is to introduce the outlines fairly early. Also, the early successes may be quick by they can have lasting consequences as those successes can last the entire campaign. So, while short, they end up having a greater impact.

I haven't found CR guidelines to be a problem at all.
I imagine that your kobold war should be over by level 5 or so. Monsters in numbers can be daunting to a party even if that party should mop the floor with them.


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If you want to do a Kobold war that spans an entire campaign, find creative ways to up the threat level as you go along. Do the Kobolds have allies or allied nations? That can bring some additional content to your game. If you want a suitably powerful big bad to head your up your war, have the villain behind the war be an ancient dragon. There is a kobold connection there. There are various levels of dragons to battle. You can always boost up kobolds themselves as the PCs gain levels. Or simply have the kobold war be the initial indicator of a bigger and mysterious plot. Perhaps the war is the product of a cult of dragon worshipers that riled them all up. Once the war is done, they discover the cult and it's secret ties to politics and power. Then they discover an ancient prophecy that describes the return of their evil dragon-god. Things like that. You can take it either way, with the war being the campaign or the war leading to something bigger. It will be fun no matter how you do it.

As for advancement and how long it takes, it will surprise you. The early levels tend to go by pretty quickly. The later levels it can really slow down. So don't worry so much about planning it out based on time. The PCs will do things that you didn't expect. Things you though would take long may breeze by while things you though would go will will take hours. Just go with the flow, more or less. The story you craft will set the pacing more than any pre-done calculations.

knasser said:

So I'm shortly starting my frist ever 5e campaign and I wanted to get a feel for how progression would go. Should I plan a war against the kobolds or would the PCs quickly level out of battling kobolds by the third adventure? Should I plan my epic protagonist to be a CR 29 arch-fiend? Or would it take five years of real-world playing to get the characters ready. And did I need to mess with the XP levels in the book because that's something best done at the outset not mid-campaign when the players are busy working out what spells they want for when they reach level 9 next session, etc.

Click to expand...

I just want to point out here that not every experience point necessarily has to be earned on-screen. After the climax and denouement of a huge adventure, it's okay to say, "And then you spend five years hunting down kobolds and the remants of the giant army, have many adventures, and earn 150,000 XP in the process. Then one day this happens... [adventure hook + session break]" and then have a higher-level adventure. This is essentially how milestone levelling works, but without the math.

Not every day of an adventurer's life needs to be the riskiest, deadliest, worst day of his life. But those are the days that players like to experience, so we skip straight to them when necessary.

I don't use experience; my players' characters level every so many sessions we play. One of them pointed out to me that, since we tend to talk and joke around a lot during our sessions, I may need to revise the exact forumula I use for that progression, but I'm still happy with the idea overall.

Particularly in 5e, kobolds can be nasty. They always have been, but there is a common association with monsters that individually weak=stupid. You can dig up the old 2e Adventure Dragon Mountain if you want to see what a foolish assumption that can be, and for ideas on how to make kobolds a high-level threat.

I'm very much an old-school DM in some ways, up to and including my expectation that the players will react appropriately to suicidally dangerous odds or situations. If they are facing an army of goblins and they decide to confront said army head-on on a flat battlefield, they will go down.

That said, it's not my goal to punish them or make the game less fun. Last time we played, they came upon a winged ape that, in the ensuing battle, literally impaled one of the characters with his own spear, dropping him to 0 hit points and pinning his body to the wall. The player recounts that experience with relish, and holds it as the single best session we've had in the campaign. His two companions (our friends in real life and, in-game, his brothers) concocted schemes to get him up and going again, but the sense of real danger is what made the scene memorable. Would I have let hum die? Probably not, but it was a choice I didn't need to make due to everyone's engagement with their characters and the scene.

But I'm rambling.

My advice: don't sweat it. No matter which edition you're coming from, tings will operate a little differently. Feel free to change what you want to work the way it did before, but give the rules as written a shot; you might be surprised. I was strongly against the quick-and-easy healing in 5e on paper, but in practice it allows me to run a pretty brutal, violent game, which is perfect for the sword & sorcery style campaign I wanted to run.

You'll find your way with the rules the same as the rest of us. What works for my group might not work for yours and vice versa. That isn't a design flaw, it's why we play D&D instead of a video game.

Thanks for all the replies. Please, people, don't read too much into references to Kobolds or arch-demons. That's just my colourful way of illustrating my question. What I'm really after is to see what the progression is for most people and what they and their players like the progression to me. I want to see how the DMG guidelines actually measure up to reality in people's experience and also what people aim for or if they don't aim for anything, then how it unfolds for them.

I like to plan this stuff out. But I have never run 5e before so I want to use other people's experience as my intuition.

knasser said:

So I'm shortly starting my frist ever 5e campaign and I wanted to get a feel for how progression would go. Should I plan a war against the kobolds or would the PCs quickly level out of battling kobolds by the third adventure? Should I plan my epic protagonist to be a CR 29 arch-fiend? Or would it take five years of real-world playing to get the characters ready. And did I need to mess with the XP levels in the book because that's something best done at the outset not mid-campaign when the players are busy working out what spells they want for when they reach level 9 next session, etc.

Click to expand...

In my opinion, it's best to first think about how much Real Time you want to spend on a campaign and work how you'll handle advancement around that. Personally, I don't go in for campaigns that last longer than 6 months of weekly 4-hour sessions. I like to start big, keep it tight on pace, and end big before it drags. Then I move on to something else. Whether that means I do standard XP or milestones and what range of levels the campaign will sit at play into my real life timeline. My experience with many DMs is that they leave it open-ended and eventually the campaign just peters out before that final epic antagonist. That's unfortunate in my view.

knasser said:

Now I've heard the DMG encounter guidelines are a bit shaky. I also know that there are several assumptions in the below that wont always hold. It's at best and average outcome per the DMG guidelines. What I'm curious about is to see how this matches up with people's experiences. And also any advice from people simply what they personally find good in terms of progression or pitfalls they run into.

Click to expand...

I think the DMG guidelines are fine and they assume 6 to 8 medium to hard difficulty challenges per day, less if you include deadly, more if you include easy. If your group consists of skilled players, their decisions should be able to reduce the difficulty. If they are new players, their decisions may increase the difficulty. That is normal and how a challenge is supposed to work (otherwise it means your decisions don't matter and that's not a challenge!). As well, if you include options beyond the Basic Rules, the difficulty may need to be adjusted to get to where you want it to be.

knasser said:

You don't have to caveat everything with "in my opinion" and "but play how you want" - I'm interested in people's personal takes.

Click to expand...

I have found that if you don't include copious statements such as "in my opinion," "in my view," "play how you want," or other statements to this effect, then one of a handful of posters will jump in and accuse you of advocating that there is only One True Way of playing D&D.

In my experience.

It's hard to get where you're coming from when you say that an entire adventure only has five encounters in it, unless you're using that as short-hand for adventuring day. For the purposes of contributing, I'll assume that's the case, and tell you how many adventuring days it took for the party to gain each level in my last campaign.

1/2/2/3/3/2/2/3/2/1/2/2/1/2/2/0.3/0.3/0.3/1

Or something like that, anyway. Past level ten or so, the rate of gaining levels increased significantly, as they could handle both more powerful enemies and more encounters in the same day. After they got to level 16, they had a very long day that involved fighting multiple dragons, dragon turtles, liches, titans, and krakens; that gave them enough XP to skip straight to level 19 (although they still needed to actually train for six weeks). Getting to level 20, after that, only took one more encounter (nine purple worms).

[MENTION=65151]knasser[/MENTION] I've only been DMing 5th edition at low-levels (1st - 4th), but here are the XP tallies for my group of 6 players in our home Underdark game.

Level 1

Miscellaneous Quests
South Bridge: Find and return Wildon’s Sow (25)
South Bridge: Provide the Waverly family reassurance they will be safe (25)
Fish Market: Communicate with the flumph (50)

Fighting the Monsters in the Hollow
5x skum (100 each) = 500
carrion crawler = 450
Fish Market: Save most of the villagers and their catch from skum (100)

Cultist Hideout/Ambush
3x homonculi = 30
8 cultists (25) = 200
Guardhouse interrogation: variable, depending on information gained from captive cultists (85)

Goblin Fight
6x goblins (50) = 300
goblin boss = 200
Stables: Saved all horses and most of the stables from fire (100)

Level 2

Random Encounter
4x skum (100 each) = 400

Spiders in the Lumber Yard
5x giant wolf spiders (50) = 250
Lumber Yard: Using Tallywacker’s traps to great effect against monsters (50)

Mother of the Hollow: Spider Lair
Negotiate peace with spiders and dig the Mother a way back into Underdark (400)

Troglodytes/Crawlers in the Cairns
6x troglodytes, in sunlight (25 each) = 150
3x carrion crawlers (450 each) = 1,350

Random Encounter
5x cockatrices, with NPC support (45 each) = 270

Fight at the Greengage
17x tribal warriors/horsemen
2x mastiffs
1x veteran = altogether 1,175