D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

Gadget · Dec 27, 2016

Back to the guide for a moment, I'm kind of surprised that Hold Person is rated so low. Yes it is limited to humaniod and the subject gets a ST every round. But it is practically an "I win" button if you land it and it lasts for more than a round or two, and decent even if it only lasts a round; especially if your companions are in a position to pound on the subject.

I'm also surprised at Witch Bolt not being rated at red or worse, since it is almost universally panned. The guide also mentions casting True Strike in conjunction with Witch Bolt, which will not work as both spells are concentration spells.

Not to mention the fact that Timestop is extremely limited now, such that most of the spells you would want to cast during the effect are concentration, thus limiting it to only one extra spell to cast, plus a move and maybe a minor buff or quick potion quaff. Useful as a quck get-out-of-dodge spell (but for yourself only, the rest of the party...) with maybe a calling card left behind (DBF anyone?). Or maybe a quick get-past-the-guardians & traps to get the McGuffin (in two to five rounds).

CapnZapp · Dec 27, 2016

Gadget said:
Back to the guide for a moment, I'm kind of surprised that Hold Person is rated so low. Yes it is limited to humaniod and the subject gets a ST every round. But it is practically an "I win" button if you land it and it lasts for more than a round or two, and decent even if it only lasts a round; especially if your companions are in a position to pound on the subject.

I'm not TAM, but when you get the spell, it is definitely at the very least orange if not outright red.

Not only is everything TAM say true (concentration, save ends, humanoid only), but to that you need to add that your save DC isn't that scary, so chances are low any monster will remain held for many rounds.

Also, at this time, the spell requires you to spend one of your highest leveled slots, which makes it very expensive. Much too expensive for the relatively limited benefit.

However, at level 10 or 15, the spell is completely transformed.

Now a level two slot is peanuts to you costwise - you have plenty.

Now your save DC is scary indeed, and almost every monster in the entire MM is helpless if you can only target their weak saves. (In the case of Hold Person you need to find a humanoid with a weak Wisdom save)

This means that I would rate Hold Person green. A low-level spell that probably will devastate its target (or targets!) if used correctly, making them lose their actions and giving advantage to attacks on them for probably the rest of the fight.

Whether you read this to mean I agree or disagree with you, I leave for you to say

Werther Barreto · Jan 17, 2017

Dude! You do a great service for all the mages in D&D! I am roleplaying a abjurator mage and i am having fun but I was kind of lost until see your guides! keep going with your fantastic work!

SpoCk0nd0pe · Jan 26, 2017

After going over your spells again, I would rate Phatasmal Force higher, maybe even sky blue. It should be fairly easy to find an illusion to catch the attention of most unintelligent creatures, and there are many, many in the MM. The only real restriction is the 10 ft cube size. It can be used to blind creatures, deal damage and probably distract from attacking the party.

For example, a dark, dense cloud of noxious fume is one object, blinds and should do damage. Dragons, Devils and Demons should be easy to distract with their arch enemies. If you DM rules it to be one object, any form of closed container around the head with lava, fire or something suffocating can be really devastating if you can't think of anything specific.

Seems like no save, just suck and take (not huge amounts but ok-ish) damage for a lot of creatures (metaphorically speaking; the chance of making that save is just really low). Even on higher levels this should be effective, even against intelligent creatures. There seem to be very few creatures proficient with int saves.

[edit] changed the example to accommodate for the need of the illusion to be a single object or creature. I think the spell's explicit rules are bent a lot in examples found online, 'breaking' the spell. But it can definitely cause things like blindness.

[edit2] more clarification

CapnZapp · Jan 27, 2017

SpoCk0nd0pe said:
After going over your spells again, I would rate Phatasmal Force higher, maybe even sky blue. It should be fairly easy to find an illusion to catch the attention of most unintelligent creatures, and there are many, many in the MM. The only real restriction is the 10 ft cube size. It can be used to blind creatures, deal damage and probably distract from attacking the party.

For example, a dark, dense cloud of noxious fume is one object, blinds and should do damage. Dragons, Devils and Demons should be easy to distract with their arch enemies. If you DM rules it to be one object, any form of closed container around the head with lava, fire or something suffocating can be really devastating if you can't think of anything specific.

Seems like no save, just suck and take (not huge amounts but ok-ish) damage for a lot of creatures. Even on higher levels this should be effective, even against intelligent creatures. There seem to be very few creatures proficient with int saves.

[edit] changed the example to acommodate for the need of the illusion to be a single object or creature. I think the spell's explicit rules are bent a lot, 'breaking' the spell. But it can definitely cause things like blindness.

The question of illusion effectiveness has been discussed countless times before. The short of it is: don't assume another DM will run illusions the way you do.

My own opinion is, that if the spell could cause the condition blinded, it would have said so.

Other than that, just two comments: the spell is not "no save, just suck and take" - it clearly specifies an Int save.

The damage (1d6 per round) is, also in my opinion, not "ok-ish". In my opinion, it is completely trivial. (Not a huge blow to the spell; only that my rating would definitely not be relying on the damage. The save being Inte is a much more valuable aspect of the spell, for example)

SpoCk0nd0pe · Jan 27, 2017

Sure, Illusion rules are ambiguous to leave room for roleplay. There is explicit sage advice that states Phantasmal Force can blind monsters though:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/14/phantasmal-force-on-a-bag/

Assuming 14 or 15 save dc, the chance to make that dc is really low for 3 int monsters. They would have to roll an 18 or 19, that is really bad, even with 2 tries.

The damage is not so bad. Assuming just 2 rounds of combat, it's 2d6 psychic damage. Scorching ray only does 6d6 on successful hit rolls vs AC and that's fire damage. If we take that as benchmark, 2d6 guaranteed psychic damage doesn't seem bad at all.

Jonathan Larkin · Feb 1, 2017

Thanks for the great guide!! I know it's been a while, but I do have a request: under feats, what's your take on Observant? I was sort of bummed to not see it on the list, and I think the point in intelligence lets you do some nice ASI balancing as you progress (or if you do take variant human). Treant, what are your thoughts on this feat?

Undrhil · Feb 4, 2017

In the first part of the guide, you mention that a spell cast using Action Surge was clarified by the Devs to be limited to cantrip only. I have searched up and down and I cannot find this ruling anywhere. Can you provide a link to it please? All of the Sage Advice entries from Jeremy Crawford answering questions of "If a Wizard uses Action Surge, can they cast any spell?"-type questions with "Yes".

FormerlyHemlock · Feb 4, 2017

SpoCk0nd0pe said:
Seems like no save, just suck and take (not huge amounts but ok-ish) damage for a lot of creatures. Even on higher levels this should be effective, even against intelligent creatures. There seem to be very few creatures proficient with int saves.

There is an Int saving throw before the illusion can take effect.

The damage isn't the exciting part of the spell though. It's either the blindness or, depending on the illusion, the actions the target wastes trying to deal with the illusion that provide the meat of the spell's effect. A githyanki war band is less effective if the Githyanki Knight is spending his time battling a non-existent Young Black Dragon, for example.

flametitan · Feb 5, 2017

Hemlock said:
There is an Int saving throw before the illusion can take effect.

The damage isn't the exciting part of the spell though. It's either the blindness or, depending on the illusion, the actions the target wastes trying to deal with the illusion that provide the meat of the spell's effect. A githyanki war band is less effective if the Githyanki Knight is spending his time battling a non-existent Young Black Dragon, for example.

Why go for a Dragon? Wouldn't a Mind Flayer be more effective, or would that possibly end up being too well known to the Githyanki (thereby giving some kind of benefit to their save?)

D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e

Gadget

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CapnZapp

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Werther Barreto

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SpoCk0nd0pe

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CapnZapp

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SpoCk0nd0pe

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Undrhil

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flametitan

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