Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

These comparisons also gave rise to things like aspects in FATE, Rising Drama difficulty in Heroquest, mechanics such as insight in D&D or fate points in SotDL which are devices/mechanics for simulating the cadence or flow of these other media in rpg's.

Of course, and depending on what you think RPGs should be like, you are going to either like those things or not like them. But the point is: not every RPG needs to emulate those things. Additional point: things like fate didn’t just rip structures and replicate them. They had to find a way to fit them to RPGs. We tried ripping the structures of stories directly in the 90s. And that led to a lot of problems for people (and ultimately led to things like Fate to get around some of those problems). It is an issue of acknowledging this is a different medium and that people come to this medium for different reasons. Not all of us want literary prose in our games.
 

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That's a perhaps over-long way of saying that my top tip would be (i) work with the players to help them make "laden" PCs, and then (ii) latch onto the hooks those PCs are laden with. And conversely, I think the easiest way to get crappy situation is to come up with it independently of the PCs, and to have the whole thing be driven by We have to do the fetch quest because that's what the GM is serving up.

This is helpful. As I looked over your specifics from other games systems, I see that my approach is actually quite similar, though I hadn't distilled it down to its essence. The main system I've GMed for the past 20 years has been GURPS, which provides tons of story hooks on the character sheet. I usually focus on disadvantages and quirks, but skills and advantages come into play too. As a player, I love it when a GM picks up on a relatively minor skill and gives it center stage; I invest points in those skills because I hope they'll be relevant someday.

My first time GMing GURPS, back in the early '90s, I didn't have a good sense of this and wrote an adventure that had nothing to do with the specific PCs. The PCs were wonderfully rich, but I think the players were all so drunk on the flexibility of the chargen process that nobody considered why the characters might want to be together and why they might go on adventures. (I didn't have any session zero conversations back then.) The first few sessions were painful, to say the least, and I was personally mortified since I considered myself to be a veteran to TRPGs and I couldn't figure out why everything was going so horribly wrong.

Thinking back, I can see how that experience fits, to some degree, with the premise of this thread. At the time, my approach to "fix" things was to work harder on the adventure: better monsters, better NPCs, more backstory, richer cultural elements, snazzy handouts, deep research into the literary foundations of the campaign (the Arabian Nights), etc. I poured my heart and soul into it. All this work wasn't entirely wasted, but it didn't get to the root of the problem. I finally had a big OOC conversation with the full group. I found out what the players were excited about and what they found dull. I found out where there were disconnects between what a player wanted and what their character sheet said. We revised characters together (even retired and replaced a few), adjusted backstories, and made sure there were some ties between characters. For my part, I tied the story directly to them and made sure that every session would have direct hooks to one or more PCs. At that point, all the prep work began to pay off and it grew into an immensely satisfying 10+ year campaign.
 

Aldarc

Legend
To me, this is flatly false. You can have the most fascinating situation ever written, but, if it's presented poorly, without any literary technique whatsoever, it will fall flat every single time because, at it's heart, yes, RPGing is a literary endevour. You, as a GM, need to be aware of literary techniques and how to apply them or you will simply never reach your intended audience.
I think that a GM should probably be aware of storytelling techniques to inform and improve their games, but not necessarily literary ones. Literature is one form of storytelling. But GMing could also take cues from cinematic techniques. (Which doesn't make RPGs "film".) Plus, one could be aware of historiography and "Gesichte" to inform your stories, but that does not make RPGs history. Furthermore, I should also think that a GM should be aware of interpersonal issues, but that does not make RPGs psychological therapy.
 

Imaro

Legend
I think that a GM should probably be aware of storytelling techniques to inform and improve their games, but not necessarily literary ones. Literature is one form of storytelling. But GMing could also take cues from cinematic techniques. (Which doesn't make RPGs "film".) Plus, one could be aware of historiography and "Gesichte" to inform your stories, but that does not make RPGs history. Furthermore, I should also think that a GM should be aware of interpersonal issues, but that does not make RPGs psychological therapy.

Do you think using at least some of these techniques is core to running a game?
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
For you...maybe, I've yet to be convinced, but for some/many/most the other things you mention aren't attainable or fun without a certain quality to the literary aspects and descriptions, the presentation and performance...

Well, different people have different personal concerns and interests whereby they derive their desire to play an RPG. I think concern with the literary quality of narration falls into that category.
 



Hussar

Legend
Nope [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]. I 100% agree with you.

Any earlier disagreement was because of the misleading and vagueness of the OP. If you had simply said, Is RPGing high art?” This thread would be three posts long.

Instead you used a bunch of word salad verbiage that obfuscated your point and then couldn’t be bothered to clarify your point when it was obvious that most here didn’t get what you were saying.

What an utterly pointless thread and a total waste of time. No wonder it’s so frustrating.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Nope [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]. I 100% agree with you.

Any earlier disagreement was because of the misleading and vagueness of the OP. If you had simply said, Is RPGing high art?” This thread would be three posts long.

Instead you used a bunch of word salad verbiage that obfuscated your point and then couldn’t be bothered to clarify your point when it was obvious that most here didn’t get what you were saying.

What an utterly pointless thread and a total waste of time. No wonder it’s so frustrating.

Although I wasn’t entirely sure about the point made in the OP, here’s [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]’s follow up post on page 2, which to me, made his point very clear.

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] - I'm glad at least one poster found my OP clear enough!

To elaborate - and I see what I'm saying in this post as consistent with the OP, and hopefully you will also - I don't see RPGing as primarily performance (in the artistic sense). Not for the GM - of course a melifluous GM can provide entertainment, but I don't see that as core. And likewise on the player side - thespianism is (in my view) secondary, whereas engaging the fiction from the position/perspective of the character is absolutely central.

And here's one way I would make this more concrete in terms of advice: if a new(-ish) GM asked me what is the one thing to do to make his/her game better, I would recommend working on managing framing and consequences to maintain player engagement, rather than (say) working on the portrayal/characterisation of NPCs.

I think this post makes it pretty clear. I know that the choice of the word “core” threw some people off, but the actual point is clear.
 

Hussar

Legend
Although I wasn’t entirely sure about the point made in the OP, here’s [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]’s follow up post on page 2, which to me, made his point very clear.



I think this post makes it pretty clear. I know that the choice of the word “core” threw some people off, but the actual point is clear.

Considering we're 50ish pages down this rabbit hole and you have multiple posters obviously not understanding the point, including myself, I'd argue that it wasn't quite as clear as maybe you think.

As I said, if the OP had simply stated, "Is RPGing high art", then this thread would be 2 posts long. As it is, it was a total waste of time and energy because everyone kept flailing around trying to figure out just what the hell the OP actually meant.

Which, if we're going to apply this to gaming advice, could be stated as thus: "Just because you understand your own words doesn't mean that you are actually communicating what you think you are communicating. Listen to the responses you are getting and if they are not matching what you think they should be, then RESTATE YOUR PREMISE IN SUCH A WAY AS TO BE CLEAR."

Or, in other words, keep it simple, direct and apply your internal editor to cut away the cruft words like "melifluous" and whatnot and actually make your frigging point.
 

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