Mike Mearls Discusses Possible Alternate Class Features for the Ranger on Happy Fun Hour 11/20

5ekyu

Hero
I think the monk complaints were mostly about perception rather than in practice.
People remember the spikes in damage. Which Mr. Mearls talks about. You remember the spikes and alpha strikes. So while the monk holds their own, they do so with consistent even damage. While the rogue does so with memorable critical sneak attacks.

Monks actually do pretty decent damage. At first level they can do 1d4+3 twice a round, for 8 damage on a good round, which is better than a fighter with a longsword (7 damagae) and close to a great weapon fighter's 2d6+3 (10 damage on average). And once they get ki and can add another couple attacks, they can double that. Which is generally even with Action Surge, if not usable more often.
Plus, since they're using multiple small attacks, when you include accuracy their average damage is higher, as they have more chances to hit and not miss.
And their damage dice goes up pretty quickly. I had a 9th level Way of Shadow in a mini campaign, and she could tear through enemies. At five 1d6+5 attacks, she could potentially do more damage than a rogue at that level, who might be doing 6d6+5. (Heck, even without flurrying, the monk's average damage is comparable to the rogue with sneak attack.)


Emphasis added.
It's actually pretty simple why are they the least popular classes: most players build their characters based on story and the character they want to play and not what is mechanically the strongest.
Paladins and bards have funky flavour (as does the monk) and the bard especially seems somewhat comedic. And the druid's role as the guardians of nature isn't always as appealing to players. Especially as they have a lot of aspects to manage, requiring knowledge of spells and animal for wild shapes. They've never been exceptionally popular.
As a bit of casual influence - its less common in my experience for new players to imagine druid nature priest as a must have for dungeons etc.

It takes a bit of experience to see how the mechanics of the druid makes them apply to so many cases - which wasnt always the case in prior editions.

I have seen this hit the ranger too... Especially with concern over "will my favored enemy or terrain show up enough" until a good degree of experience and trust emerges.

Just consider, look at the AP and other AL stuff... How much would any given terrain or enemy show up if you picked it before knowing which AP was being used?
 

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Asgorath

Explorer
Are you suggesting that people’s class preferences aren’t primarily driven by character optimization!?

Lol yeah, seriously, though, people play ranger be they love rangers, not because they’re happy with the specific mechanics involved. Surveys are the only way to sort out why a class is more played.

That's why I switched to a Ranger after I got bored with my Paladin. Granted, I started at level 6 so I got to skip over some of the earlier pain points, but I'm actually quite happy with the Gloom Stalker subclass overall. I'll definitely be following the development of the alternate class features, because Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer definitely don't feel as useful as they could be (we just hit level 9 and I've used each of those abilities exactly once). As an archer I would've liked the Revised Ranger's version of Vanish (level 6 instead of level 14) but it's not the end of the world.
 


jgsugden

Legend
My fixes were:

1.) Rangers add bonus damage to attacks against their favored enemies. It is the same amount of damage a barbarian of equal level adds when raging.
2.) Rangers, druids and nature clerics gain access to a first level spell that calls an animal companion with a CR equal to 1/3 of their character level. The animal companion is an NPC loyal to the character that called it. The PC can verbally communicate with the animal. The animal is normal with the exception that it gets to use the caster's proficiency bonus, it gets to share spells cast on the PC if within 30 feet, and it has minimum HP equal to the amount indicated in the stat block or 4X level of the PC.

It works really well.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That's why I switched to a Ranger after I got bored with my Paladin. Granted, I started at level 6 so I got to skip over some of the earlier pain points, but I'm actually quite happy with the Gloom Stalker subclass overall. I'll definitely be following the development of the alternate class features, because Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer definitely don't feel as useful as they could be (we just hit level 9 and I've used each of those abilities exactly once). As an archer I would've liked the Revised Ranger's version of Vanish (level 6 instead of level 14) but it's not the end of the world.
Agreed on all points. Primeval Awareness is worth using in the HFH version, at least. I just with Hide In Plain Sight wasn’t terrible still.
I think it should be a Druid subclass but... yeah.
They aren’t mutually exclusive, tbh.

But of the three, Ranger is the most important class to have a pet option.
 

But of the three, Ranger is the most important class to have a pet option.

Why? Just because people only played 3E, 4E, and Pathfinder? Or because of Drizz't?

Most of the Rangers I have played were in 1E and 2E, so no pets. If I wanted a pet back in those days, I would have had a Ranger/Wizard multi-class with a familiar. And the reason I think it should be a Barbarian subclass is because of the Beastmaster movies.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That's why I switched to a Ranger after I got bored with my Paladin. Granted, I started at level 6 so I got to skip over some of the earlier pain points, but I'm actually quite happy with the Gloom Stalker subclass overall. I'll definitely be following the development of the alternate class features, because Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer definitely don't feel as useful as they could be (we just hit level 9 and I've used each of those abilities exactly once). As an archer I would've liked the Revised Ranger's version of Vanish (level 6 instead of level 14) but it's not the end of the world.

Why? Just because people only played 3E, 4E, and Pathfinder? Or because of Drizz't?

Most of the Rangers I have played were in 1E and 2E, so no pets. If I wanted a pet back in those days, I would have had a Ranger/Wizard multi-class with a familiar. And the reason I think it should be a Barbarian subclass is because of the Beastmaster movies.

Drizzt, WoW, and the last 20 odd years of dnd outweigh the Beastmaster movies. Besides, he doesn’t rage, he isn’t less vulnerable to weapons than normal people, etc, but he is good at tracking and relying on his senses. He’s more Ranger than barbarian, in 5e terms.
 

Personally, I’m poking away at these as a quick post-it note fix, inspired by the revised ranger, but not going as far.

Ranger Changes
The ranger class gains the additional benefits:
Favoured Enemy. You add your proficiency bonus to weapon damage rolls dealt to your favoured enemies.
Natural Explorer. You have advantage on initiative checks. Additionally, on your first turn during combat, you have advantage on your first attack roll against a creature that has not yet acted.

Beast Master
The beast master archetype has the following changes. Your beast companion adds its Constitution bonus to its hit points a number of times equal to your ranger level. Additionally, it gains a number of bonus hit dice equal to your level.
 

Pauln6

Hero
Personally, I’m poking away at these as a quick post-it note fix, inspired by the revised ranger, but not going as far.

Ranger Changes
The ranger class gains the additional benefits:
Favoured Enemy. You add your proficiency bonus to weapon damage rolls dealt to your favoured enemies.
Natural Explorer. You have advantage on initiative checks. Additionally, on your first turn during combat, you have advantage on your first attack roll against a creature that has not yet acted.

Beast Master
The beast master archetype has the following changes. Your beast companion adds its Constitution bonus to its hit points a number of times equal to your ranger level. Additionally, it gains a number of bonus hit dice equal to your level.

Too good for dipping sadly! I'd probably split the difference. The beast companions will get their con bonus when they spend their hit dice (although the errata was vague on what dice the beasts should get - a compromise would be giving the beast its base hit dice but letting it share the benefit of the ranger spending their own hit dice). I don't think you need to widen the gap by adding con to hit points, although adding the con bonus from the animal's base hit dice might not be unbalanced and would add slight variation.

I think adding half proficiecy bonus to damage might scrape by (a berserk two weapon Ranger would get +15 damage per round against favoured enemies).

The other benefits just need to be spread out. Advantage on initiative and attacks could be nice to add at level 5 perhaps.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
And the druid's role as the guardians of nature isn't always as appealing to players. Especially as they have a lot of aspects to manage, requiring knowledge of spells and animal for wild shapes. They've never been exceptionally popular.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but there's always a druid in our groups.
 

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