Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Hi All,

In the interest of helping Lew make his entire point, I've added in his third installment to this article just so that it's presented together as a whole.

Much of his point was made with the "grey goo" quote. It sets a tone that is... unwelcoming to anyone who happens to enjoy other styles of gaming.

The rest of it seems poorly researched, as there are other folks around here and elsewhere who seem to have thought more deeply (and I'd say more evenhandedly) about this subject, and the author seems ignorant of that. The author probably should have gotten himself up to speed on the state of scholarship and theory (such as it may be, it is better than his) before starting to write. His use of loaded terms and factually incorrect absolute statements do not strengthen his arguments.

Maybe some discussion with *current* designers of games would have been helpful, too.

And, to answer his final question - No particular gamer has to like all kinds of games. But, around here, we do ask people to limit the time they spend trash-talking styles they don't like, or how often they tear down things other people love to make their own favorites look good.

Overall, this is a disappointing series. I would hope for better from this place.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
In fact, one of the most famous stories involving the Tomb of Horrors was how Robilar was the sole survivor who conquered it: "...When he found the tomb of [Acererak] Robilar scooped all the magical treasures he could into his bag of holding and ran off leaving [Acererak] hanging..." ...as well as all his henchman and anyone else accompanying him, it sounds like. Not really a "focus on the success of the group" kind of thing.:p

That's not really the best example. Not only has Gary himself told us that all of Robilar's henchmen (a grand total of five orcs) died at the beginning of the Tomb (one killed by Robilar himself when he didn't want to proceed any further), but more notably Rob Kuntz has said that he played through the Tomb as part of a playtest, making it sound as though he was the only player at the time. So in other words, there wasn't anyone else accompanying him; it was a one-on-one session.
 
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Henry

Autoexreginated
That's not really the best example. Not only has Gary himself told us that all of Robilar's henchmen (a grand total of five orcs) died at the beginning of the Tomb (one killed by Robilar himself when he didn't want to proceed any further). More notably, Rob Kuntz has said that he played through the Tomb as part of a playtest, making it sound as though he was the only player at the time. So in other words, there wasn't anyone else accompanying him; it was a one-on-one session.

...and admittedly, Robilar was played as evil alignment, as well, exploiting everyone he could -- but that's kind of the point; so many of the anecdotes I've heard from Mordenkainen, Tenser, Erac's Cousin, etc. were pretty self-centered ones, ones often in which they weren't even adventuring together, but employing henchmen to do dirty work, sometimes even working against each other as part of the 'sandbox' style they often employed for their gaming.

Heck, Tenser's name (one of the more lawful and good ones) is lent to spells whose purpose is to out-fighter the Fighters: Tenser's Deadly Strike, Tenser's Fortunes of War, etc. (Ernie didn't necessarily have anything to do with those spells, but the point being, there was a lot of centering on individual characters and grandstanding among the general populace of gamers back in the day, which carries to this day.) One can't simply say that "everything was all about cooperation and success of the group in the old days." There are plenty of solo stories or stories of PCs abandoning one another when the going is bad, because of the high death rate and uncertainty of combat.

I love this anecdote:
wikipedia article said:
As a player, Gygax created many different characters for the Greyhawk world. At the point when eight of these characters — Mordenkainen (wizard), Yrag (fighter), Bigby (wizard), Rigby (cleric), Zigby (dwarf), Felnorith (elf), Vram (elf) & Vin (elf)[2] — had collectively accumulated both enough wealth that they couldn't easily spend it, as well as standing armies that rivalled most nations' forces, Gygax had the eight characters form an alliance that he called the Circle of Eight.

source: http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/46861-q-gary-gygax-pt-3-a-17.html

He formed an alliance... with himself. :D I loved Gary, and it's stories like this which are part of why I enjoyed talking with him years ago. But it also goes to show the level of individualism that was just as present in early D&D play as today, and some could argue MORE so, not less.
 

This article makes it sound like his primary complaint about "New School" games is that he doesn't like Combat as Sport or the mandatory magic item progression in 4E.

It's a reasonable preference to have, but tying a connection between 4E and the entirety of NS gaming seems a bit of a stretch.
 

Count_Zero

Adventurer
Much of his point was made with the "grey goo" quote. It sets a tone that is... unwelcoming to anyone who happens to enjoy other styles of gaming.

The rest of it seems poorly researched, as there are other folks around here and elsewhere who seem to have thought more deeply (and I'd say more evenhandedly) about this subject, and the author seems ignorant of that. The author probably should have gotten himself up to speed on the state of scholarship and theory (such as it may be, it is better than his) before starting to write. His use of loaded terms and factually incorrect absolute statements do not strengthen his arguments.

Maybe some discussion with *current* designers of games would have been helpful, too.

And, to answer his final question - No particular gamer has to like all kinds of games. But, around here, we do ask people to limit the time they spend trash-talking styles they don't like, or how often they tear down things other people love to make their own favorites look good.

Yeah - the sentiment in these articles as a whole feels very strongly like gatekeeping - that if you're not playing the style of game that [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION] endorses (I'm not going to explicitly describe it as "old school" because has been mentioned over the past few threads), you're not a real role-player, and frankly that's a mindset that really needs to have been dumped into the Orb of Annihilation yesterday, as it's literally a mindset meant to drive people out of the hobby.
 

Aldarc

Legend
[MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] already provided an excellent overview of some of the core problems of these past three articles, particularly Part 2 and 3.

I will add my own voice of displeasure regarding Lew's articles. I don't think they were written well.

First, let's play a quick game here. If you were reading these articles expecting to learn something new about "New School" games and/or "Old School" games, after reading these articles would you be able identify what either of those terms mean, provide ample examples, and then articulate what you have learned back to someone who has not read the article based on the content of the article? Okay, that was not a fun game, but I hope y'all get the point.

Overall, they suffer three resonating problems: conflicting tone, poor display of knowledge, and deficient argumentation. When you mix all of these together into an article that attempts to demonstrate the differences between "Old School vs. New School" TTRPGs while ultimately demonstrating little of any real substance, then you are going to leave a lot of people sour about the article (and author).

Conflicting Tone: Lewpuls's article suffers the problem of a conflicting tone. There are several dimensions of conflict at play here. First, the tone is lost amidst the author's unclear purpose. What is the purpose of the article? Is it meant to be informative? Teach us the difference between OS and NS? Persuasive? Will it persuade us that Old School is better than New School? It's unclear, as the first article jumps directly into the discussion in medias res:
For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.
Okay? There is a "last time" without any link. But herein is also what seems like a muddled thesis statement: "the difference between Old School and anything else is...in attitude..." So this is what we should expect the articles to demonstrate sufficiently well. Does it?

Second, the author's tone is heavily in favor of Old School gaming. When coupled with the aforementioned unclear purpose, then the article feels all over the place, coming across more like an uninformed rant than something meant to either persuade or inform, because his poor writing results in him failing at both. Having a preference in itself is not a problem. What is a problem is treating another gaming preference with condescension, derision, and badwrongfun. This problem is then magnified by his next problem.

Poor Display of Knowledge: Lewpuls may be knowledgable about his subject matter. I don't know. I do not that he does not demonstrate that knowledge in his articles. And this ignorance is perhaps best exemplified in the graph he uses to start his debate, particularly the quadrant intersecting "Very Dangerous" with "Entirely Storytelling" where it says, in full honesty, "I don't see how this is possible." If only one such a game existed, then maybe he would know. But this article would have you believe that none do.

This issue does get into his deficient argumentation. He does not define his terms well. (Maybe he had in prior essays. I don't know. But I am clearly not alone in the confusion.) What is an Old School game? What is a New School game? What are examples of OS boardgames and NS boardgames? And how about video games? He cites Torchlight 2, but he fails to contextualize the game in its genre. It's an action RPG in a similar vein (and with a number of the same creators) as the Diablo franchise. The game's Skinner Box that is meant to engender prolonged gameplay revolves around these loot drops. This is a genre feature since at least Diablo 1 (1996). Is that a New School game?

That said, the impression we are left with of "New School RPGs" is not very flattering, and that certainly is an understatement. Is he complaining about NSRPGs or "special snowflake" Millennials? It's so difficult to tell. He does seem to associate Fate with a NSRPG, but he does not provide much content or argumentative support in that regard. The extreme dearth of examples of either NSRPGs or OSRPGs deprives his argumentation of any real meat or support. If this essay were an assignment, nearly everyone of his assertions would have been besieged by red ink markings that read "citation?", "such as...?", "evidence?", "how? please show support for your work," etc.

Without the author to supply any content or support for his argument, the reader is left to presume that "New School" reflects more contemporaneous trends, leaving us to supply our own assumptions about what games are included in the respective lists But there are plentiful counterexamples among these "NSRPGs" that would seemingly debunk the author's claims. And we see these in egregious assertions like this:
Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail.
How can anyone assert this with a straight face or with any intellectual honesty? This leaves the impression that Lewpuls is ignorant of the subject matter. Is he not familiar with these other games? Given his preference of OSRPGs over against NSRPGs and state desire to demonstrate a difference of at least attitude, one would then assume that he would be prepared to shell out some examples with well-reasoned argumentation. But no.

Deficient Argumentation: We have covered some of these already. There are no citations or insufficient evidence. There are a series of conflicting tones. But often the argumentation is just fallacious and downright horrendous by any reasonable standard:
Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)
At first I found this outrageous, but then I muted my feelings - as we are encouraged to do for the sake of calm logic - so that I could recognize in myself how impressed that I was that the author combines both a false analogy with guilt by association. Dogs have four legs. Doesn't that remind you of my earlier discussion on the wickedness of cats who also have four legs? Your honor, I rest my case. We could continue, but other posters will likely point out those problems, much as [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] did previously.

RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?
This is most definitely true. And thanks to the author, whose articles seem hellbent on presenting a negative, misinformed one-sided portrayal of New School RPGs and keep the audience ignorant about meaningful differences, you too can dislike what the author intends for you to dislike!
 
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The problem with this sort of theory is that it starts off with a bogus dichotomy, and then seeks to manufacture evidence to support it.

'Old school' and 'new school' is just the latest attempt to create categories for an arbitratory game theory. They are just monikers, however. Old games don't inherently have less storytelling than new games, and new games don't inherently carry less danger.

Individual games have different emphases in rules and approaches, but the attitude/desire to make more simplified and more complex rulesets have existed since the year dot. Tunnels & Trolls (1975) was an attempt to create a more rules lite version of D&D, while Chivalry & Sorcery (1977) was an attempt to do the opposite. I'll leave it to readers to decide which was more 'narrative' or not, but it should be noted that classic campaigns like Call of Cthulhu's Masks of Nyarlathotep (1984) manages to have a great story combined with a lot of personal danger to PCs.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
His tone is certainly dismissive, but that's fine. I don't question EnWorld's decision to run his articles. We can all deal with a little sass. He's being a bit provocative, and in the "in my day /get off my lawn" manner that will always be present in any discussion.
Agreed in all respects.

As for the article itself, there's a few bits I found quite relevant. One is this:
lewpuls said:
Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
Then you said (broken up to include my replies):

hawkeyefan said:
Here we delve into some odd assumptions about New School games. According to this section, the following must be true of New School games:

- Nothing unpleasant happens
We've already seen in other threads that at least in D&D the level and degree of 'unpleasant' has clearly declined over the editions, so while saying 'nothing unpleasant happens' goes too far it's certainly fair to say 'there's much less potential for unpleasant to happen, leading to it happening much less often'.
- Nothing terrific happens
Well, not quite: in fact 4e and 5e, at least in the published adventures, are combat-designed so that terrific happens all the time - which is just as bad! Most of the set-piece combats (particularly in 4e adventures, which did these really well) are set up such that the enemy gets the jump on the party for the first round or two, then the party roars back to victory. Problem is, when everything's special then nothing is...meaing it can all tend to end up looking the same if the DM isn't careful.
- Every monster provides a loot drop
Again taken too far, but the concept of "treasure parcels" (4e) and "wealth by level" (3e) do smack of a degree of prepackaged-ness not really present in earlier versions.
- Failure is not possible
- No one gets in serious trouble
- The game has no pacing, no negative consequences, and no losses
I changed the list order so as to batch these three together, as they're all variants on the same theme along with 'nothing unpleasant happens' above. In some games built around fail-forward a true flat-no failure is quite difficult to achieve, be it on something basic (climb a wall) or something grand (an entire mission) in part because the game - for lack of a better term - wants you to succeed. This to me is a real difference from what we'd call old school games that didn't give a hoot whether you succeeded or not and just went on their way regardless.

As for the rest, see my comments re 'nothing unpleasant happens', they all apply here too.

I personally found things like that to be frustrating and boring when I was playing as a kid. If we didn't find the secret door, then we could only proceed to a certain point. That kind of design is frustrating, and I think it has been addressed in several ways, in both the Old School and the New School.
This is what I mean by a flat-no failure, and it's intended to be frustrating - that's the point! If you were frustrated, that means it worked as intended. :)

So it's a mission fail - so what? Go back to town, recruit a better thief or find a device of secret door detection, and try again. Or find a different mission. :)

The frustration and aggravation in trying to find the way forward makes it that much sweeter if and when you finally succeed. I think this is often overlooked.

I don't think that the fact that New School favors a different sort of challenge means that they need their hands held. In fact, in the old days, when our party ran into a dead end for whatever reason, the DM would inevitably simply allow us to find the secret door, or to learn the pass phrase, or otherwise access whatever key we missed in order to proceed. Sounds exactly like hand holding to me.
It is, and is also another form of railroading. As a player I don't like it when a DM does this, and I try not to do it as DM.

Do New School games view combat as sport? How so? We can't know from these statements here.
From these statements no. But I think CaW v CaS is one distinction, albeit a bit fuzzy, that can be made between old and new at least within the D&D realm; not just in design but in player/DM preference. Look at the discussions in here for example, whenever this topic comes up: the CaW supporters are generally those who started with (and maybe never left) 0e-1e-2e while the CaS supporters are generally those who either started more recently or whose main focus of play has become 4e-5e.
 
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dwayne

Adventurer
WOW, condensed much, mind you both have their good and bad ideas on things but it is a style and if it works for the group and gm then that is all that matters really. I prefer to play/run old school variations of 5th edition with my groups and i inform them of that before we play. Still some do not realize the full extent until knee deep into it. But regardless I like the players to find their own way in the game and make them use their skills, and their real brains and not hand hold or lead them by the nose. I give hints and such and there are consequences for missing them and ignoring the signs just like in life.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think people are engaging the content of this article emotionally, rather than looking at the essence of what he is saying.

1) The author's approach has a significant impact on how the readers will react. We can take the piece apart in that vein, if you like, to show how he set himself up (intentionally or not) for such a reaction.

2) The essence of what he is saying seems to be emotional - it is how *he feels* about the games, not about objective facts, or statistical trends, or even the considered opinions or theories of significant people in the field today.
 

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