D&D 5E Are powergamers a problem and do you allow them to play in your games?

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Increasing HP or armor class is not cheating for a DM I hate when people use those words because why does an oger only ever have this many HP and this armor why can some ogres advanced and have them in plate mail. The job of the DM is to make adjustments for the group from more HP to higher ac and sometimes we can have fun and custom build magic items or monsters

It's not "cheating" - especially not when you do it for an exceptional monster. But if the DM just gives +2 AC and +3 attack bonus across the board to all their opponents because the DM knows the players have strong characters...that just feels like dirty pool. :p

Not saying anyone here makes a habit of that, just pointing out that taken to an extreme it can be bad. Just like optimization taken to an extreme can become a problem.
 

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Satyrn

First Post
So the question is - are you having fun? Is the group having fun? Is the DM adjusting their encounters to still provide a challenge? If yes, then I don't see a problem.

In my last campaign that I ran, my wife ran a half-orc barbarian. She was a terror - recklessly attacking while taking half damage and still having a decent AC while wearing no armor. Just tearing through monsters left and right. I couldn't really complain too much because her choices had all made sense for the character she was playing.

So I adjusted the game. Sometimes I threw high AC bad guys she still had a hard time hitting, sometime big buckets o'hit points where I actually appreciate someone that could do triple digit damage on a regular basis so it didn't become a slog. Other times I hit her with spells (the party hated it when her barbarian failed her domination save) or did fire, acid or lightning damage and so on. Sometimes I just shook my head when she leaped onto the back of that dragon and then proceeded to do multiple crits and destroyed the encounter.

I adjusted the game to fit the characters I had, not the characters that fit my vision of what a party "should" be like. Which is something I've always done.

It's been fun so far, but I've only had it for one session. And though I used it in every round of combat I wasn't rescuing the party cleric from a death I contributed to,* I really hope the DM doesn't adjust anything to account for the wand. If he does so, I might feel forced to keep using it, and I don't want to do that session after session.

I sometimes think the worst effect of powergaming is that once the DM makes those adjustments, the players can't scale back, can't branch out into new strategies that might very well be less than their best.




*in my defense, the cleric was in the mouth of a foul beast, maybe being dragged underground. And he would likely have hit 0 anyway if I hadn't killed the beast eating him. Plus, the cleric has lightning resistance. And I really wasn't expecting to roll 5 points shy of max damage on 8d6.
 

Grimkrieg

Villager
Once again, optimizing is not the same as powergaming. Powergaming is literally gaming for power, it is striving to dominate the game at all costs, not necessarily in competition against other players, in fact many powergamers probably complain with the group that the other players aren't keeping up and powergaming too. It's more about wanting to dominate and trivialize the challenges of the game instead of enjoying them. It's the equivalent of looking for tricks or bugs (or "cheat legally") in a computer game in order to cruise through it with ease.

If you are optimizing your character you are not necessarily powergaming, but on the other hand a powergamer is always also an optimizer. I know, because I've been there during the 3e era. I was good at understanding the rules and thus at optimizing my characters. The problem was that sometimes I could feel that my PC was too much better than the others played by more casual gamers, and I did not like it. So I started to purposefully create characters in a different way, not necessarily purposefully making them bad (although sometimes I actually did), but for example focus more on horizontal than vertical growth, or to try out new things instead of picking a character choice that I had already verified it worked. I often purposefully picked an apparently sub-par spell or feat in order to set myself the new challenge of making it worth.

System Mastery -based design sounded a good idea back then, what could be wrong in rewarding someone for wanting to play well? Unfortunately it creates the conditions for confusing playing well with dominating the game. The results are you are actually playing worse from the point of view of everyone else enjoying the game. And some powergamers themselves don't enjoy the game either but merely enjoy their sense of being better than everyone else.

Let me tell you a partially-related story...

A long time ago, me and my closest group of friends started the habit of playing chess during our long evenings together. We had fun for a few months. Then one of us decided to take a step further and bought a book on chess tactics, and shared it with his brother. In a month or so they studied the book and became unbeatable by the rest of us, and matches became a pushover. How could you blame them for wanting to learn to play better? But the ultimate problem was that suddenly the group was split, we just could not play all together anymore, those 2 could only play against each other and the rest by themselves. Final result, we never played chess together again. What seemed to be a good idea turned out to be distruptive.

Fortunately D&D has a huge advantage: you don't have to feel stupid if you know how to dominate the game but choose not to. Once those friends learned chess tactics, the only way to restore balance to the group would have been for everyone else to read the same book (but apparently, we weren't interested enough in investing our time like that), they just could not purposefully play dumb once they knew better. But D&D offers so much character diversity that if you ever figure out one "combo" to break the game, you can easily just play something else that makes the game more healthy challenging. The problem is powergamers still feel stupid if they don't pick that combo. If that's the case, they should just play together in a group of sole powergamers, and don't bring detriment to other players.

I find this definition of power-gaming being problematic a lot clearer and more acceptable to me than the OPs. If the thread had started with this strong definition, I doubt we'd be seventeen pages in. Oddly that means that more people might see the way you handle it since it is midway through a controversial thread.

The problem is that there are many ways to dominate a game. As someone who often gets tagged as a power-gamer because I play optimized characters and have a good grasp of mechanics I often have attitudes like the OPs thrown at me, even when I am not being disruptive.

Further clouding the issue is that gaming for power as a goal, is actually quite different than wanting to dominate the game. Having power in the game world can lead to very interesting choices and stories. Dominating the game is just disruptive and disruptive play should be curbed, no matter what the root cause. Often that involves someone splitting from the group.

When I first hit high school in the late eighties the older gaming group at my school literally sneered at the way I play because I allowed high level characters in my game. I was labelled a power-gaming player and a monty-haul DM by people who had never played in my games. It hurt, since this was the first group that I had encountered beyond my own, and a few babysitters who played D&D/Paranoia. I understand that they are using a bad definition, but theirs seems more common unfortunately.

My question is if power-gaming is just the disruptive, extreme form of things like char op and system mastery then why do we need a special name for it? We don't have a special name for disruption like myopic role-playing dragging the game to a crawl, or people who bring their personal grievances into the game, or people who just try to hog the mainstage no matter what. These are just as disruptive as power-gaming, so why don't they get labels?

Rules lawyering does, and that is interesting.

I'm not trying to be combative, especially since I think your definition is very clear. It just seems that people throw power-gamer around as a label pretty carelessly, equivocating it with char op and system mastery like OP did, and I am tired of it.
 
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It's not "cheating" - especially not when you do it for an exceptional monster. But if the DM just gives +2 AC and +3 attack bonus across the board to all their opponents because the DM knows the players have strong characters...that just feels like dirty pool. :p

Not saying anyone here makes a habit of that, just pointing out that taken to an extreme it can be bad. Just like optimization taken to an extreme can become a problem.

I agree. I remember feeling annoyed that Sword Coasts Legends played slide-whistle with their menageries of monsters so that a 10th level party was still on par with the same number of goblins they had been fighting at 1st level and that a 1st level party somehow had the chutzpah to duke it out with a beholder. Takes the starch out your sheets, if you know what I mean, and just doesn't feel right.

So I typically don't do that. This isn't to say that unique or limited-edition versions of lower level creatures don't wander into my games from time to time. I'm a big fan of reskinning and changing up abilities/weaknesses on creatures, too. Cries of, "What do you mean it used its' bonus action to disengage, orcs don't do that!" are followed by retorts of, "Well, apparently Skin Flenser Outriders do!" or "Trolls don't regenerate after taking fire damage!" are responded to by, "Usually that's correct, but Ember Trolls actually regenerate twice as much when exposed to raw flame."

I feel that characters should usually have a good feel for the monsters of their world, since being an adventurer means you've had some keen interest in such things in most cases and cultures would have rich information on how to deal with or survive their predation. But it's also a lot of fun to surprise players with an interesting change up that requires a new approach as they struggle to figure out how this new type works. Especially with powergamers... :)
 

hejtmane

Explorer
It's not "cheating" - especially not when you do it for an exceptional monster. But if the DM just gives +2 AC and +3 attack bonus across the board to all their opponents because the DM knows the players have strong characters...that just feels like dirty pool. :p

Not saying anyone here makes a habit of that, just pointing out that taken to an extreme it can be bad. Just like optimization taken to an extreme can become a problem.

That is usually true about anything in abundances; i do move AC and HP around as sometime I modifying monsters power to make them more interesting and fun. Some times I send waves some times I have a bunch of small guys that are annoying and burn up resources for bigger monsters around the corner use terrain; make NPC's from characters lots of tools at my disposal. Then again all my campaigns are custom because that is the way we did it back in my youth
 
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Greg K

Legend
Once again, optimizing is not the same as powergaming. Powergaming is literally gaming for power,

I agree with you so far. Optimizing is not the same as powergaming. Optimizing is simply a tool that can be used for several goals.

it is striving to dominate the game at all costs, not necessarily in competition against other players, in fact many powergamers probably complain with the group that the other players aren't keeping up and powergaming too. It's more about wanting to dominate and trivialize the challenges of the game instead of enjoying them. It's the equivalent of looking for tricks or bugs (or "cheat legally") in a computer game in order to cruise through it with ease.

If you are optimizing your character you are not necessarily powergaming, but on the other hand a powergamer is always also an optimizer.
Here I disagree except for where you state, "If you are optimizing your character you are not necessarily powergaming." Powergaming is simply the primary motivation for playing, which is play someone powerful or with the primary goal of obtaining power as defined by the game. In D&D, if you the player is their character sucks because they have a below average stat or several stats below some above average number, the person is engaging in powergaming. If the player's focus of the game is on leveling to obtain bigger bonuses, new powers, and treasure so their character more powerful by leveling so as to acquire bigger bonuses, new powers, and treasures (repeat process), that is a form of powergaming. The player does not need to engage in optimization at all. However, optimizing sure helps make the latter more goal easier for powergamers why many powergamers will use optimization to achieve their goals.* Similarly, they do not need to treat the game like cheat codes or bugs.

*Actually, powergaming is on a continuum rather than being absolute and most players engage in and optimze for it to some degree even if they don't realize it. The person in AD&D whom places their highest score in Wisdom, because it gives more bonus spells , the 3e player whom puts their wizard's highest score in Intelligence to increase their save difficulty and gain access to higher level spells, and the fighter player whom puts his highest ability in strength so as to gain a higher to hit and damage bonus are all engaging in powergaming at some level ( the last player may be optimizing toward butt-kicking and/or powergaming.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Once again, optimizing is not the same as powergaming. Powergaming is literally gaming for power, it is striving to dominate the game at all costs, not necessarily in competition against other players, in fact many powergamers probably complain with the group that the other players aren't keeping up and powergaming too. It's more about wanting to dominate and trivialize the challenges of the game instead of enjoying them. It's the equivalent of looking for tricks or bugs (or "cheat legally") in a computer game in order to cruise through it with ease.
1. If dominating the game at all costs is powergaming then I doubt there exists a single power gamer.

2. Power Gamers of any definition do enjoy the challenges of the game. For them pwning the bad guys is a good chunk of the enjoyment. If the bad guys ever ramp up and get on their level then they enjoy the feeling being a very important part of overcoming this new harder challenge.

Something for other players to consider. When you are playing with a "power gamer" don't try to compete with him in whatever sphere he is looking to optimize for. Instead find something else you can do well and make a character that does that instead.

For example. I played in a game where there was a super tanky and DPR dealing barbarian. I figured my best option was to basically ignore combat and focus on one of the other pillars. So I made a sorcerer that was nearly totally focused on the social pillar. I hardly ever cast offensive spells. I contributed in combat with my dagger or my firebolt but it was a measly contribution. The other characters were a cleric, a rogue and a bard. No one envied the barbarian in combat. We talked about how awesome he was and how much we needed him in combats. Most all of us had our own out of combat stuff we were good at that the barbarian had no chance of helping at.

In other words, envy and jealousy and anger at the optimized character making your not as optimized character in the same pillar feel like a sidekick is probably the bigger problem. The power gamer isn't responsible for your emotions but he gets the blame for them. In other words, the solution is to not have a large power discrepancy between 2 characters focusing on the same pillar. That can occur in any number of ways.

A. Let the power gamer have that role and do something else
B. Let the power gamer make a less effective character in the same role so the 2 PC's are on par
C. Kick the power gamer out
D. Kick out the guy that made an imcompetent character instead of the powergamer
E. Have the power gamer do his power gaming in a pillar no one else wanted to play.
F. Embrace the sidekick role and rub it in his face anytime you actually outperform him because of the dice
 

Paul Susac

First Post
For me, Powergaming is just another way that a player shows me that he or she is passionate about the game. I actively encourage it, but I don't make rulings that support their desire for uber-ness. I make them earn it.

That said, EVERY power gamer has a focus for their character. Want to foil your power gamer? Give them encounters that don't play to their strengths. Most powergamers focus on combat. So make diplomacy or stealth necessary components to complete an adventure. I think that my job as a DM is to creatively frustrate my players. There is literally no way to powergame your way past this.
 

A. Let the power gamer have that role and do something else
B. Let the power gamer make a less effective character in the same role so the 2 PC's are on par
C. Kick the power gamer out
D. Kick out the guy that made an imcompetent character instead of the powergamer
E. Have the power gamer do his power gaming in a pillar no one else wanted to play.
F. Embrace the sidekick role and rub it in his face anytime you actually outperform him because of the dice
Even when following your assumptions that its the non-powergamer stepping into the power-gamer's role rather than vice versa, and that a non-power-gamer character is actively incompetent rather than simply being less-optimal, these are rather extreme.
 

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