Looking At The Pathfinder 2 Wizard Class

houser2112 · May 24, 2018

mellored said:
MichaelSomething said:

I thought people hated time based cool downs because they were video gamey?

Click to expand...

Just because a video game uses it, doesn't mean it's bad.

And really, what else is D&D magic if not on a cooldown?

I agree with your first sentence. However, magical or supernatural abilities that say "You must wait X before using this again", where X is a specific length of time, are pretty rare, if they exist at all. All of the abilities I can think of reset after explicitly resting for a certain period of time (spells), at a certain time of day after X uses (most SLAs), or randomly (dragon breath).

Yaarel · May 24, 2018

mellored said:
An issue with spell points is that you often end up spamming the "best" spell. Especially if you take the feats that boost that particular spell.

If using spell points results in spamming a particular spell to a degree that is disruptive to the game, then it usually means the spell was undervalued and needs to cost more points. Oppositely, if a spell rarely finds use, then its cost is probably too expensive. For certain spells, the spell might do better with a redesign.

Using spell points − especially during the design process − improves quality control.

You mention a ‘hybrid system’. In the context of 5e, the designers decided to treat spell levels 1 to 5 separately from spell levels 6 to 9. So in this context, there can be one spell point pool for the lower tier spells, and a separate spell point pool for the upper tier spells.

Spell points can work well in the 3e system, as the psion class demonstrates.

There is an even simpler way to handle spells. Instead of having lots of points/slots that refresh per long rest, it is possible to have fewer points/slots that refresh per short rest.

For example, a wizard only has upto four slots. Only one of these slots can cast the highest spell level available, the remaining three can only cast the next highest spell level. The slots automatically heighten lower spell levels if possible. These slots refresh per short rest.

Calibrating around short rests helps fighters and wizards keep better pace with each other in terms of expending resources during the day.

Even if going for the simpler per-15-minute-rest slots, it still helps to think in terms of spell points when designing spells, to more accurately evaluate the worth of a spell.

Yaarel · May 24, 2018

For what it is worth, Gandalf is a paladin who prefers Dex over Str.

houser2112 · May 24, 2018

mellored said:
An issue with spell points is that you often end up spamming the "best" spell.

How is this unique to spell points? A spontaneous caster can use up all of their slots on magic missile, if they so desire. A prepared caster can likewise prepare magic missile in all of their slots if they so desire.

Yaarel · May 24, 2018

If a wizard character spent their youth learning how to cast cantrips reliably, then they didnt spend it learning how to swing a sword competently. Or a staff.

Treat cantrips like proficiencies.

Along these lines, I think it is fine if a player wants a wizard that knows how to wield a sword − or even wear armor.

A spell like Mage Armor ( ≈ chain tunic) could be designed as an always-on cantrip.

So, it would be a balanced choice between mundane armor proficiency versus magical armor cantrip.

For me, the magic is always the cooler choice, so I would go for all magic all the time. But if other players want a more ‘worldly’ wizard concept, I see no problem. Just make sure options are moreorless mechanically balanced with each other so the choices are fair to player preferences.

So far, the wizard gets four cantrip slots. Swap out cantrip slots for weapon and armor and helmet proficiencies.

Make staff a good weapon choice, maybe if used two-handed, finesse, grants AC bonus (being useful for deflecting), and can deny one opportunity attack. The staff is an archetypal weapon so some plot protection is ok. But also let the wizard choose a sword, why not? The fighter has features to excel when dealing sword damage. But a wizard who is simply proficient, no big deal.

It occurs to me, grappling (unarmed mixed martial arts) probably deserves to require a proficiency. And that is something even I might want to swap a cantrip for, tho it is a painful choice, since normally the wizard wants to be as far away from melee as possible. But the body is part of a magical being, and for the ‘jock wizard’ archetype, I would want it.

Maybe connect grappling proficiency with maintaining spell concentration when attacked. That would make it more useful for a wizard. And maybe if a target is successfully grappled, then it becomes possible to sunder an item from the target, such as disarming a sword, removing a wand, or whatever. Grappling can be an appealing choice for wizard, especially as one four cantrip slots.

zztong · May 24, 2018

Ancalagon said:
I concur. I'm startled by the notion that polytheism is so hard to remove that it ruined the game for him. It's as if someone said they refused play warhammer because they hate crossbows...

If I had to make an argument for his frustrations, it would be that Pathfinder is so complex that folks need to use Hero Lab. But once you embrace Hero Lab your ability to implement a custom setting becomes difficult because Hero Lab won't enforce your setting's rules.

For instance, my home-brew setting has three deities, all neutral. I had to define all of the Golarion deities as "aspects/avatars" of those three deities so that players could make Clerics using Hero Lab. I can ignore mechanics like alignment easily, but realigning the various Clerical Domains in Hero Lab represents much more effort than I have available. I had to resort to half-heartedly supporting Golarion deities.

Parmandur · May 24, 2018

zztong said:
If I had to make an argument for his frustrations, it would be that Pathfinder is so complex that folks need to use Hero Lab. But once you embrace Hero Lab your ability to implement a custom setting becomes difficult because Hero Lab won't enforce your setting's rules.

For instance, my home-brew setting has three deities, all neutral. I had to define all of the Golarion deities as "aspects/avatars" of those three deities so that players could make Clerics using Hero Lab. I can ignore mechanics like alignment easily, but realigning the various Clerical Domains in Hero Lab represents much more effort than I have available. I had to resort to half-heartedly supporting Golarion deities.

That's a fair point, hadn't considered that. Doesn't really seem to apply to 5E, though?

zztong · May 24, 2018

Parmandur said:
That's a fair point, hadn't considered that. Doesn't really seem to apply to 5E, though?

I don't know about 5E. Sorry, I must have missed some part of the conversation. I've not played it since the playtest.

Sunseeker · May 24, 2018

houser2112 said:
How is this unique to spell points? A spontaneous caster can use up all of their slots on magic missile, if they so desire. A prepared caster can likewise prepare magic missile in all of their slots if they so desire.

Not to mention, why wouldn't you take that approach?

"No, this time I think I'll use this totally ineffective spell because I'm required to have about a half dozen spells on my list I never actually use."

Parmandur · May 24, 2018

zztong said:
I don't know about 5E. Sorry, I must have missed some part of the conversation. I've not played it since the playtest.[/QUOTE [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] had stated that it was impossible to remove polytheism from 5E. Now, 5E hardly requires a tool to track stats, so it is fairly easy to reflavor, no harm, no goul.

Looking At The Pathfinder 2 Wizard Class

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