D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

Lanefan said:

That sounds like yet another hole in the 5e rules.

Easy to fix, mind you; but come on - something like this should have been got right to begin with. Even in medieval times some people were robust or portly and still athletically fit.

All it needs is a bell curve for those who want to roll (say, 100 + 10d12*) and a range near the center of that bell curve within which you can just choose if you like (say, 140-180*). If the range of 110-220 still isn't wide enough you could always add a rider by afterwards rolling a d20 then flipping a coin whether to add or subtract this from your original roll (thus giving a range of 91-240, a bit wider).

* - this would be for human males; females do tend to be a bit lighter on average so maybe make all the constants 20 less for simplicity (thus 80 + 10d12 or a chooseable range of 120-160).

Maybe, but we can at least wave at it as it goes by.

Lan-"you can get much more complicated by throwing height, strength and constitution in as factors affecting weight - if you really want to"-efan

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They do actually deal with height and weight on a curve. The modifiers are in the PHB. Thing is, sure, medieval times people might have been pretty big, but, come on, not THAT big. There's no way to get Schwarzenegger big without some serious changes in diet and medication.

But, it does miss the point that I was making though. The AVERAGE half orc and dragonborn is bigger by quite a lot than the largest humans. So, they get a +2 Str modifier. Ok, fair enough, that makes sense. Give someone 50 or so pounds on another person, and yup, they're most likely going to be a fair bit stronger. Presuming, of course, similar levels of fitness.

But, how much of a difference are we talking about between a female fighter (say) and a male fighter? 50 pounds again? Not really. It's not that unusual to see a woman tipping in around 160, 170 pounds. She's built like a Valkyrie, sure, but, fair enough. So, what's the point spread here? Should we be capping her strength? We don't cap his even though he's giving up 50 or 60 pounds on the next bigger guy.

Never minding the elf that tops in at about 100 pounds. Or the halfling that is pushing maybe 40. If female humans are being capped at 2 less than male humans, (for that actual effect on the Strength table), how much do we have to cap those guys? Do we really want a game where halflings are limited to a 10 Strength?

No thanks.

Like I said, the game simply isn't granular enough for sexual differences to make a difference stat wise.

Maxperson said:

It's not sexist unless it is specifically intended to target female players in a negative manner. An effort, even one that is poor, that is merely intended to model life, is not one that is intended to target female players negatively. Especially when it is one that affects both men and women and not women alone.

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But, where do you stop? If we're going to cap female human PC's at, say, a 16 str, male humans at 18, what about all the smaller races? Elves, halflings, gnomes and the like? And, really, why stop there? Why are humans even remotely as intelligent as elves? Good grief, the average elf is 100 years old, but, I'm still a 1st level character? What the heck? Why am I starting at the same point as some 16 year old human? I've been a physical adult for 80 years (or so). What the heck have I been doing for the past TWO human generations.

Like I said, this is a very, very deep rabbit hole you are leaping down. There's a very, very good reason why D&D doesn't do this anymore. Because, just like any fantasy, once you start kicking the backgrounds a bit, you realize how unbelievably inconsistent the whole thing is.

Hussar said:

But, where do you stop? If we're going to cap female human PC's at, say, a 16 str, male humans at 18, what about all the smaller races? Elves, halflings, gnomes and the like? And, really, why stop there? Why are humans even remotely as intelligent as elves? Good grief, the average elf is 100 years old, but, I'm still a 1st level character? What the heck? Why am I starting at the same point as some 16 year old human? I've been a physical adult for 80 years (or so). What the heck have I been doing for the past TWO human generations.

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The current bonus structure is based on balance, unlike the minimums and maximums of 1e. If, and again I repeat that I don't want gender limitations brought back, we were to institute gender differences, we would have to re-do the bonus system entirely so that it made sense. You'd see both gender and racial bonuses and penalties, as well as minimums and maximums.

Actually in medieval times people were much smaller than today. I mean much smaller.
A male was considered large if he got 5 feet. There were exeptions, like today there are some few people who are very tall.

But otoh people in the middle ages despite their size were much stronger and tougher than todays people. Those who were not died during their childhood.

Hussar said:

Do we really want a game where halflings are limited to a 10 Strength?

No thanks.

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I'm game for this. Cap others at 18 DEX and allow halflings to gain 20 DEX. What they miss out in STR they could gain elsewhere:

+2 bonus (Lesser Advantage) to hit and damage with thrown weapons and slings
Increase crit range by 1 with thrown weapons and slings
Lucky - reroll 1's once per day
Bonuses to climb & jumping skill checks for every 2 points in STR
Bonuses to balance & acrobatics skill checks for every 3 points in DEX
Improved defense against creatures of medium or greater size
Advantage on Fear checks
Cover Benefit: Due to their size its easier to have 3/4's cover or full cover
+2 bonus (Lesser Advantage) on history, heraldry, myth, and social checks regarding anything related to halflings
Nimbleness - ability to move through creatures with less consequences
Bonus Language, perhaps its easier for them to pick up Languages.
Inspirational: Given their chearful disposition allow them to expend their Inspiration to give others a reroll on a Saving Throw or Second Wind.
...etc

And in Mystara - they also get access to Denial (Counterspell) in the Shires or if really powerful anywhere else.

I think its better to celebrate the differences than just make everyone the same with just slapping a label (race) as the only difference.

Why are humans even remotely as intelligent as elves? Good grief, the average elf is 100 years old, but, I'm still a 1st level character? What the heck? Why am I starting at the same point as some 16 year old human? I've been a physical adult for 80 years (or so). What the heck have I been doing for the past TWO human generations.

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Give them 1 or 2 bonus languages or an additional Lore proficiency - maybe a craft/profession (singing, dancing, poetry, acting) or ability to play a musical instrument.
Mystaran elves are very different to Tolkien elves. They're frivolous and what the dwarves would refer to as lazy - very complacent, love playing, music and hunting, and their ambition is slow to mature. They also do not stay together 'long' in relationsips (40-60 years), getting bored, ending with mutual separation. Therefore elves can have 3-4 significant partners with many children over the course of a lifetime. Not your usual type of elves
This of course explains their 'wasted' years in the Known World - I'm less familiar with elves' personality in DS, GH and FR.

Coroc said:

Actually in medieval times people were much smaller than today. I mean much smaller.
A male was considered large if he got 5 feet. There were exeptions, like today there are some few people who are very tall.

But otoh people in the middle ages despite their size were much stronger and tougher than todays people. Those who were not died during their childhood.

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Actually, these tiny medieval people turns out to be a misconception. Smaller than us on average, yes, but not five feet, if lucky. The error occurred when historians based height on armour found in old castles. Turns out those little suits were decorative, not intended to be worn.

Coroc said:

Actually in medieval times people were much smaller than today. I mean much smaller.
A male was considered large if he got 5 feet. There were exeptions, like today there are some few people who are very tall.

But otoh people in the middle ages despite their size were much stronger and tougher than todays people. Those who were not died during their childhood.

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5 feet in medieval times? Skeletons form the early middle ages indicate that the average height of a man in Northern Europe was 5'8"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040902090552.htm

Maxperson said:

It's not sexist unless it is specifically intended to target female players in a negative manner. An effort, even one that is poor, that is merely intended to model life, is not one that is intended to target female players negatively. Especially when it is one that affects both men and women and not women alone.

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Max, subconscious bias is a real thing and people can behave in sexist and/or racist ways without realizing it, just as people can cut others off in traffic without realizing it. A lack of intent speaks only to a lack of malice on the part of the actor. I have already said that I don't believe the original creators intended to be sexist when they implemented the female Str cap (but then, I never knew them personally or corresponded with them, so I may be wrong about that). However, pretending that the limits of reality should pertain only to female PCs, along with a lot of art that shows women as scantily-clad sorceresses or slave-girls, sends a very clear message to women who might be interested in the game.

Also, in my experience, the cap on female PC strength affected very few male players. Usually, male players make male PCs and are only affected by the Str cap if their sex is changed by a cursed item. Now, there are several reasons that male players typically make male PCs. But, you can bet that one of them is a male player making a fighter character doesn't want to deal with the Str cap. Other reasons frequently include things like other players ridiculing them if they play a female PC; I have seen so many idiot players (virtually all of them male, by the way) make comments like "are you gay?" to a male player of a female PC.

BookBarbarian said:

5 feet in medieval times? Skeletons form the early middle ages indicate that the average height of a man in Northern Europe was 5'8"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040902090552.htm

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Yes I was to generalizing in my post. It is true that in the early middle ages people were almost the same height like people today. But that diminished with the so called little ice age and only since 20th century people are taller again.

It was also dependant on your living circumstances. The rich and noble had better nutrition and were likely to be taller.
[MENTION=6816042]Arilyn[/MENTION] The thing with the small armor was not only children sized suits but also model suits made by the armorers as an exhibition of their craftsmanship.

There wer also giants. In castle Ambras was a guy who was 2m40 (close to 8 ft.)
And he had a giant armor

https://imageapi.khm.at/images/556747/HJRK_A_634 und andere-400.jpg

Here it is beside some childrens suits of armor

MechaPilot said:

Other reasons frequently include things like other players ridiculing them if they play a female PC; I have seen so many idiot players (virtually all of them male, by the way) make comments like "are you gay?" to a male player of a female PC.

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Because gay men are known for being especially interested in women, I guess.

MechaPilot said:

Other reasons frequently include things like other players ridiculing them if they play a female PC; I have seen so many idiot players (virtually all of them male, by the way) make comments like "are you gay?" to a male player of a female PC.

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I'm aware that this happens, but it has been (strangely?) absent from all my gaming groups. Even back in high school some of us had female characters. I have fond memories of Kayla, my female human fighter/thief who specialized in throwing daggers.

I currently only have one active female character (Altessa - lvl 14 Warlock), but I think that's mainly because I just haven't had many character concepts lately that "felt like" they should be female.

I do have a female friend of mine who only creates male characters because she feels it causes less problems with people hitting on her characters. (She's rather attractive, and apparently if she plays a female character, some guys see it as an opportunity...)